THE STATE OF THE PATRIOTIC FRONT

What is the state of the Patriotic Front with the intention to hold a a general conference

Transcript

SPEAKER_08 0:20

We bring you guests that challenge the narrative, unveil what power hides, and spark national debate. Speaking truth to power from the grassroots to the highest offices, EMV. We bring you guests that challenge the narrative. Unveil what power hides. And spark national debate. Speaking truth to power from the grassroots to the highest offices, EMV. We bring you guests that challenge the narrative. Unveil what power hides. And spark national debate. Speaking truth to power from the grassroots to the humble.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

We want change! We want change! We want change! We want change! We want to change.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

We usually broadcast, you know, after the main news in Zambia. We usually broadcast at 20 hours Zambian time. And um I don't want to have the crisis I had yesterday. Tell me if in the comment if our broadcast is okay, if you can get the picture, if you can get the audio. Yesterday at the unfortunate uh case where people could not hear me. Is the volume okay? And let me just also just briefly, briefly check, but share the broadcast we are discussing. I want to give our comments on the PF convention. You know that uh a senior member and presidential candidate, Honorable Chamber Kamwili, issued a statement earlier this week today. Joseph William Dolo has issued a statement. What is happening? What is the state of the PF? What is their position on the issue of the party convention? These would be uh the views that I wish to express. Um comment comment is volume okay. I do not want to go on like yesterday, where I went on um and was discussing and was discussing with myself. Um if if if the broadcast, share the broadcast quickly, quickly share so that we reach as many people as possible. I'm coming back, let me just confirm with my monitor if everything is okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

We want change! We want change! We want change, we want change, hey!

SPEAKER_06 7:56

We want the change to be a fully lamp, bakulu upon the sound of the mission. I've got to be done, you must have been able to get the power of the pinnacle, but it got the chat because I went back to the book.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

If you're joining us, uh share the broadcast, and uh, I hope everything is okay. My monitor shows that we are okay. I've got an urgent meeting, and by the time I'm back from that meeting, it may be too late for me to conduct the broadcast because it will be midnight or zero on Zambian time. You know the time difference differences of almost eight hours. So uh it's around 10:15 here and it's around 19 hours in Zambia. But I thought that this particular matter was very important that we should discuss it quickly. There's a matter of the PF conference, the general conference, and there have been two major statements from two senior leaders who are also presidential candidates. First, Honorable Chemakamburi, former minister of information, I was supposed to host him here today, former um cabinet minister and longtime member of the Patriotic Front, issued a statement expressing concern that the PF should not hold his scheduled general conference, which should have taken place last week, and he said they should wait for the ruling that is coming up before Justice Conceptor Chinyanua Zulu on 27th March 2026. Today, there's been another statement by another presidential candidate who was Wheeler Joseph Medolu, who's based in South Africa, who has issued a very strong statement uh uh urging the party that he can only participate in a genuine PF conference. He says he will not participate in the conference in his view that has been called for this weekend because it is being held under no name. There's a third item. I have seen a section faction who's peddling a narrative that uh the beneficiary of um uh of the uh March 27th consent judgment will be Brian Mundwill and um and Davis Miller. Those are the three items I want to quickly respond to. Um let's start with the state of the Patriotic Front. The Patriotic Front lost elections in 2021. You know the history. President Lungu resigned at their first central committee meeting. A postmortem was done by academics led by others, including Saint Shobanda. You you must have that document, it's a very powerful document. It did uh a postmortem of why the patriotic front lost elections and made recommendations. Among the key recommendations was that the top six must resign. This included President Edgar Lungu, uh Samuel Mkupa, the chairperson, Davis Mueller, Secretary General, the Vice President, Honorable Inonge winner. So the top six were directed to resign as recommendations from the post bottom. At the first central committee meeting when this matter was tabled, the central committee uh accepted the resignation, the resignations of honorable inonge winner as vice president, and of uh Samuel Mokupa, of Davis Muela and others. They refuse the resignation of the president, President Edgar Lungo. The Central Committee decided that they were going to place him on leave, but that he will not relinquish his position as PF president. You must have seen the letters where President Lungu proceeded to write resignation letters to the Secretary of Cabinet that he had resigned as PF President. But the fact of the matter was that the party central committee in 2021 refused his resignation. They said you hold the vote until we elect a new um uh a new president, and immediately they called for a general conference that should have been held in December 2021. There's another thing that the party did, it reaffirmed and confirmed and ratified the appointment of Honorable Given Linda as uh vice president of the party and intend acting president to carry the party forward. Uh there was an appointment of um uh uh uh Nixon Chilangwa as Deputy uh uh Secretary General of the Party and to act as secretary general. Those were the developments in 2021. Davis Miller resigned in 2021. So I was just alarmed by these narratives, and I thought that we could correct that. Fast forward, the party um began the process to register uh itself as a new brand, began to rebrand itself. You heard the word rebranding so often and began to prepare for a general conference. The first nine that paid, including myself, including Mao Zampa, including Brian Mundwile, who were nine of us at Greyford Monday at Shimba Kambu, where nine of us had paid to you know contest the presidency from 2022. By 2023, we still hadn't held a conference, and then the chief registrar of societies from registrar of societies, um Madame Tandue Piri Muhende wrote a very strong letter, you remember, in April 2023 telling the patriotic front that from 2021 she had been writing letters for them to update the records because the part you know the the registrar of societies had understood that the people on the register, Davis Mueller, uh uh uh President Edgar Lungo and others in longer winner had resigned and she had not sent an updated list. We wrote a letter to the uh to to to the chief registrar at the time and UM Pierre Muhen. That in fact there was an amendment that was done that uh amended given wiener as a vice president to replace Inonge Wiener and um Nixon Chilangwa to replace Davis Mueller. So she acknowledged that such a letter was written, but they had not submitted their fingerprints. You remember, in fact, I carried the matter live from the central police station where Honorable Given Wiener, Nixon Chilangwa, Rafael Natakina went to submit. Um uh there were there were other people like freedom schools who were in Quito and we had to ask them to send to go to Quito Central Police and get their fingerprints done. A letter was done, and the police cleared the the fingerprints, a letter was done to the registrar of societies, and copies were accepted and acknowledged. This is April 2023. So as at April 2023, the record must show that given Lumina, I think was placed as vice president, we said we were only going to replace the president, President Edgar Lungo, at the upcoming conference that was due in June at the time. So President Lungo was not replaced as uh as uh as president of the party, but there were inclusions to amend those that had resigned. Honorable Nungawina, Davis Muela, Samuel Mukoupa, these were replaced by another list that was approved by the central committee when she gave when the chief registrar gave that seven days out meeting. I mean, that meeting many will remember, including my dear brother Bran Munwila. Davis Miller, who was now an ordinary member of the central committee, will remember that we approved a list uh that should go to uh the to the uh chief registrar and directed the people that were nominated because we needed to also remove uh the former minister of community development at the time she was in prison, she was on that official list. So the new list was then submitted to the chief registrar, fingerprints were taken and confirmation was done. If today the judgment comes out from the court, the leadership doesn't go to those that held the position in 2021, the leadership goes to uh uh the list that was updated in 2022 and 2023 where fingerprints were obtained. What is contained in the agreement for the upcoming judgment on 27th is that following the meeting between Mao Sampa, who was reading, who was leading a faction led by Chavinga, by Morganona and others, Mao Sampa reconciled with the late president and recommitted to hand party back to the patriotic front and decided to discard the general conference that he held on October 2023, 24th October 2023. That is the gist of that agreement is that President Lungu and Mal Samba have agreed to restore the party, reconcile both factions. The faction led by Edgar Lungu, Given Luminga, and the faction led by Mao Samba, Robert Winga, and Morgan. So remember what immediately after Mao Zamba met President Lungu, there was this backlash from the state who appeared very frustrated with a decision by Mao Samba to reconcile himself back to the patriotic front. What? Was a relevant action that Mouse Ampa did to remedy the situation and restore the patriotic front back. It's very important that we walk these parts. What Mao Sampa did was remember when he took over the party, he replaced Brian Mundwiller as leader of the opposition with um uh with Robert Chabinga and he replaced Anton Cassandra, MP for uh for uh or MP for uh or MP in Luapola for what problem what what constituencies that you know my dear brother in uh his constituencies in Samfia. Anton Kasandwe was replaced uh and and and campiongo were replaced. These were leader of the opposition was Brian Mundwile, Stephen Kampiongo was Chief Whip, and Anton Kasandwe was were replaced by Mao Sampa and he put Robert Chavinga, Anton Mumba, um, and I think Jonathan Dhaka in their stead. So a year later, when Mao Sampa reconciles with President Lungu, Mao Sampa immediately fired Morgan. Okay, you see the matter that has been boiling in court since 2024. Mao Sampa removed Morgan. He wrote a letter to the Speaker of the National Assembly to replace Robert Chabinga as leader of the opposition and replace him not with Bran Munduwile but with Brenda Nurenda and um and uh uh Mlenga Kampamba from Kalulushi. If you remember Lundazi MP, Brenda Nurenda and Mulenga Kampamba, and I think Anton Kasandwe was again brought on board. These now we're going to replace Robert Chabinga, um uh uh uh uh Jonathan Dhaka and Anthony Mumba. This is where we are. Then Morgan Ngona refuses his dismissal, refuses his removal, goes to court and obtains a court injunction to restrain Mao Sampa from removing him. That is a matter that has been raging. Where now Mao Sampa scored a very big victory. The first victory was in May 2025 when Morgan Ngona's um injunction was removed because he had failed to prosecute the case. In that in May 2025, the registrar of societies must have amended the records back to Mao Sampa. Must have amended the records. Parliament must have effected the changes that Mao Sampa had done, where he had put new leaders in parliament. But parliament ignored those letters. We know in mingalato which is going on. But finally, Judge Zulu last week ruled that the case that Morgan had taken to have him removed was now still dismissed for two valid reasons. Since June 2024, uh Morganingona had failed to prosecute that case, so the case was thrown out and yet earlier lost the injunction. Morgan Ningona immediately applied for an appeal and applied that a judge should set aside her own judgment, which had ruled that Morganingona stands fired. But the judge refused to set aside that. She said there was nothing to set aside. There was nothing to give an injunction to Morgan because for two years he had failed to prosecute the case today. Is currently the deputy secretary general of the patriotic front under Given Ubenda. So then what is happening? What is happening then on March 27th? And then what is happening to the plans for this general conference? Let me come back to that. Let me just play a brief um uh a brief uh uh song for you also to digest this. Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 26:30

We want to change, we want to change, we want to change the bigger.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

Thank you very much. This will be a brief brief broadcast. I'll not take phone calls, we'll do the phone calls tomorrow because I've got an urgent meeting that I'm attending and I need to rush. But it's important that we just use the opportunity to discuss this matter. And the goodness with Facebook is you can replay and watch later. I may do uh uh my own thoughts into a narrative statement, but I've realized that the video statement, live video statements have more impact than just a mayor statement. So I thought I could give life to the words that I may issue later. So, where are we at? You have understood that the Patriotic Front is trying to hold a general conference. The impending has been the legal matters. You are aware that in Kabwe, when we're about to hold a general conference in November, you know, in October, November, um Morganingona rushed to Kauwe. The judge and the chief justice had directed that these matters should be handled by one judge, and all the three cases were taken before Judge Conceptor Zulu. But mbufung to mgu and to escape this directive, uh Morganing on a rush to Kawe, applied before judge in charge, Kelvin Anchuvili, uh Limbani, and was given that court order. At the time, the acting secretary general who had been appointed as Deputy Secretary General was Brenda Nyurenda, Lundazi MP. You remember she's the one that conducted the fresh nominations because there were these nine candidates that included myself. But Central Committee made a new decision that in light of the development, in light of the reconciliation that was done between Mao Sampa and ourselves, that it was imperative that we reopen fresh nominations. This is where you saw the nominations of Wheeler Joseph Mondollo, uh Chand Kato, will apply MP, uh acting president Given Lubinda, and Makebizulu joined the race. This was after we reopened the process for the nine that had applied since 2022 to be joined by uh by whoever was willing to submit. And uh, Brenda Nurenda, Lunazi MP, who was acting secretary general, handled this process. So the matter in Karwe is Morganona, who has sued Brenda Nurenda as acting PF Secretary General, to stop the convention that was supposed to have because he claimed that he would suffer irreparable damage because uh, you know, uh he said the matters had not been resolved of who held the legal status of the PF. He challenged the court that he himself was the legal uh owner of the party, as demonstrated by documents at the Registrar of Societies. That is a matter in Kahwe. The matter in Kahwe was very um very fascinating because it stopped named given Lubinda's Brenda Yurenda and others not to hold any party activities, not to go to the secretariat, not to wear party regalia, not to hold party activities. You remember how expansive that order was, and Robert Chavinga used it to embarrass us most of the times at his press conference. That is the only matter standing in the way of the PF holding a general conference. And I'll relate it to the matter that is coming up on 27th March. That particular order where Moganingona has gone to the Kwe High Court to restrain the PF and given Lubinda from holding any party activities, is the only thing that legally can prevent the PF from holding any general conference. But what is the status of those orders is that, first of all, they've been overtaken by events. The court in Lusaka has ruled that Moganingona was legitimately dismissed and fired and removed as Secretary General of the party. So the sewing party in Kwe is a man that the court has established, was dismissed. What needs to be done is now just an administrative process where these facts are legally brought to the Kowei High Court. And I'm aware that Mao Sampa has since submitted the evidence of the findings of the Lusaka court, where Mogan Ngona is no longer secretary general. He has also written to the secretary, to the chief registrar, acting chief registrar Mwambazi, to inform him of the decision of the court, that the court has dismissed Mogan Ningwona and has affirmed this Mouse Ampa's decision to fire him as Secretary General. So the registrar of society has been directed to amend the records. You saw what happened on Friday when Mouse Ampa took the records, the records of the court to acting chief registrar Mwambaze. They immediately amended the records and removed Morgan Ngona and um and uh and Robert Chavinga's committee member. But by Monday, you saw that they were again reinstated, and the chief registrar, acting chief registrar Mwambaze, wrote a letter to Mao Sampa that he had received the directives of the court and he had submitted them to the attorney general Murilo Kawesha for directives. Mao Sampa has also gone to the Kawe Court, like I said, to inform the court of these administrative processes that uh the suing party should be replaced by him. He is a secretary general. All these issues are confusing people. Can the PF hold a general conference? I've always held that they can. Because given Lubinda, who doesn't have the legal status of the PF, holds central committee meetings. He directs members across the country to march, and they will march in PF colors. He will make appointments and disappointments, and they are respected. They even do invitations for national functions to given Luwinda. Yet they want to say the faction by Luwinda doesn't hold the PF. No, the faction by Luwinda holds the PF. I have again and again advised the PF that the very reason the general conference is a mayor meeting. How do you hold the central committee meeting? How do you hold the national executive committee meeting? How do you uh hold party activities like marching in you on youth day and women's day? How do you do that? Yet you don't have the legal status of the party. The general conference is just one of those activities. Proceed to hold it. It's not different from your central committee meetings, it's just a meeting. Two for the first time in two years, the patriotic front is back with the patriotic front. Because what has happened is that with the decisions of the court, legally at the moment, the party is with Mouse Ampa. Miles Ampa is a deputy secretary general in the patriotic front, which is currently being led by Given Louinda. As we are now, the PF is totally with the PF. Legally, by court orders. Let's ignore the administrative function that the registrar has to do. A court order, court directive, court judgment is more superior than any document, any administrative document anywhere. If you've been fired and the court reinstates you, even if you stand fired in the company's records, the company has a duty to reinstate you. They might say no, it has gone to legal department, but by orders of court, you are reinstated. In fact, the clock begins to tick immediately. Whether they will reinstate you after two months, whether they will do what you've been reinstated. So here, the most superior document reigning at the moment is that the PF is back with um Mal Sampa. Mal Sampa is with the group that he had reconciled with, led for forgiveness Lubinda. Should the PF hold his conference this weekend? In my view, the only encumbrance should be the presidential candidates. Sit them down and agree with them. If they agree, if the party agrees, they should hold the conference. Whether no name or whatever you call it, how has Lubinda been making appointments? How has Lubinda been making changes the same way he can hold the conference? Maybe when the matter comes up on 27th, which now I wish to discuss, maybe at that stage again you can decide to say maybe now we can have a genuine one, not genuine one, a legitimate one, even that is a difficult word. All I'm trying to say is that Lovinda and the Central Committee, you might not like them, you might have all your views about them, but they've been making decisions since 2021. They've been making decisions since 2023 when Mao Sampa took away the party from them. And those decisions have always been respected by PF members as illegal, legitimate reasons. That's why they failed to take away the PF. Because even when they deplatform the PF, the people and members call themselves PF in their hearts. What's happening on 27th March, finally, is that Mouse Ampa has wrestled the party from Robert Chawinga and Morgan. It is now under Mao Sampa, who is with the current PF. What is happening on 27th is now that legal suit. Remember Mao Sampa had filed seven seven MPs, including Brian Mundu William. When we reconciled, that was one of the active cases we used to do consent agreement. I've got the agreement that was done then. The agreement is very simple. That the party Mao Sampa and ourselves have restored the patriotic front into one grouping, breaking the factions, one led by ECL and the other one led by. But um I think he was traveling, I couldn't reach him. And Honorable Chimbakam Wili had issued a statement urging the party to hold a conference only after 27th March and the position that I've been narrating. So uh uh let me is is on the line, let me invite him. Honorable Chimbakambuili, I'm currently live when I saw your call uh to quickly, quickly just go to answer. I have been expressing my views that uh just giving the background to the PF, and I also referred to your statement by yourself and by Joseph Mundolo. And uh I have made my own remarks, but maybe the country can hear from you. Yes, you are alive now. You are alive.

SPEAKER_03 40:43

My views still stand. I think it's like I think we should become I think I think that's a pressure. I think the right decision I would like to make a decision because I think if you want the conference, when there's uh uh which is giving us where the things or not, I also have to actually come with any people from ordering the convention. Then you are not respecting the decision of the course, you are not respecting the courts. Just like that, it's telling the window that you resigned from PS. Don't use the data for PS because you resigned. So there will be no reason for anybody to use the data for PF after working the convention before the twenty seven to recognize who always. So why do you still start? That it is not correct to say that the PS has been making decisions like what I've read somewhere since 2022. On what basis has it been making decisions? Let's fix the legal decisions. When it adopts the candidates and sends to the commission of Zambia, do they accept them? The decisions that have been made are expected that do not fall within the legal framework in the constitution of Zambia. That is why when PS are not a candidate certificate and they are not recognized. Why? Because as far as the law is concerned, they are not recognized.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

Oh, the number is cutting. Let me call him back. Let me call him. Honorable, if you are listening, just just pick on my American number. Sometimes it's more clearer. Let me call him on my he was using the Zambian number. Let me call him on the American number because I want to ask him some questions. Um that I myself uh uh uh as you heard in my broadcast, I was distinguishing the matter on 27th and the matter in Kowei and the matter that um Mao Sampa won. Let me call back Honorable Shimba Kambu because I want to ask him my views that I've already expressed. So just uh let me call him so that uh we harmonize the discussion. Honorable Shimbakambuil, I'm calling you on my US number if you are listening or if you are watching the broadcast. You might not have my US number, but uh just just answer on the US number. I know he's traveling and he's driving and he might fall out of network. But let me quickly respond to what Honorable Chimbakamwiliya said. Oh, I think he has come on. Let's see. Yeah, thank you, Honorable Chimbakamwili. I hope now you'll be clear. Um you have you're very clear, but towards the end, your phone cut.

SPEAKER_03 46:41

Then your name is no name, it's not TF. And we must be very careful. We are fighting with uh uh government machinery. Look, the you the UPND yesterday was sued by somebody, an ordinary member, to say that they've not held the convention. What would stop somebody to come and say these people are claiming that this is a PF president, it's not a PF president because he was not elected on PF through the PF Convention. And the PF Convention, the rules are very clear. Prior to the convention, you must call the National Council. Has the National Council been held? The answer is no. Just like we were telling that the National Council was held, so this convention was illegal. So if you become National Council on Pf and not unload them, all that is illegal. So let's not do things for PDF's sake, let's do things that are within the confines of the law. I have said and I want to say it again. If in the event that the judgment of the 27 is against us, or there will be an agreement, then we know that between 27 and the 15th of Opril, when there will be no when they'll start receiving when the process of receiving uh um uh nominations and filing of nomination starts, then we can say we've tried our level best, but we've come to the end, and we appeal to our members to say it's only special purpose, our members who understand, but you cannot fight for the party all these years and then come and lose it in eight days because from um the day after when to hold the conference, which I'm told is within the next three, four, the next two, four days, there will only be seven days before the 27th. So what is the law? But anyway, the decision is with the leadership, the decision is with the electoral commission of Zambia. I am only giving my opinion, and other people can give their opinion. But I think I am on same ground, in as far as the law is concerned. And if we are not careful, we are going to create another problem when we are coming from another problem. We get the party back, somebody will just come and say, Oh, I want to stand as PF president because the convention which was there was not for PF president. It goes to court and they will start delaying, delaying, delaying, delaying until Jesus comes. We can avoid these unnecessary things by just waiting for another five days. The problem that we have in PF is communication, which is poor. When you make a decision, you don't communicate to the members. And the members are left in abundance, they are left without information. When decisions are made, it is important to communicate the information to the members. The president can presidential candidates are not the constitution of the Republic of Zambia. So my opinion still stands, and I'm not forcing anybody, it is just an opinion. You can take it or leave it.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

I thank you. No, don't go, don't go, don't don't go. I've got a few questions. I I think we need to clarify two issues. In my view, as I stated in the earlier broadcast, and it's clear probably you didn't listen to it, is that the only I've been listening to you. I haven't been listening to you. I didn't listen to your opinion. Yeah, yeah, here is my brief brief brief uh opinion that I communicated.

SPEAKER_03 50:58

I've only read what uh you have written, yeah, which you have posted, yeah, and I've read the what the honorable Dr. Nambi has written. I haven't read I've I've read your article that you've written on the convention, yeah, which you have posted on the MCC blog, and I've read what Dr. Nambi has written.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

Okay, so here is what I have stated on this broadcast to expand to my brief note I put on the MCC blog. I said the only matter hindering the PF from holding a conference is the issue in Kahwe before Judge, the judge in charge of Kahwe High Court, Judge Kelvin and Chubili Rimbani. Because in there he had given orders to Morgan Ingona an injunction that the PF, led by Given Lubinda, Brenda Nirenda, and others, should not hold a conference and should not hold party activities. I also stated that in light of the fresh development where the Lusaka High Court, before judge Concepta Zulu, has ruled that the party belongs to um that Morganing on a stands dismissed, and the court refused his um uh his application to set aside a judgment legally now as we speak, the party is with Miles Sampa. That's point number one. As we speak, now can I tell you?

SPEAKER_03 52:28

Yeah, just can I tell you something for nothing? Are you aware that Mao Sampa is not in support of holding the convention? Who you are calling the actual president of the PF is not in support of holding the convention before the 27th.

SPEAKER_01 52:41

I I can tell you it's a pity as a funeral, and may you know may they get may they solve the ground. I'm telling you that.

SPEAKER_03 52:48

Are you aware? Supposing Mao Sampa doesn't want this convention before the 27th, and after the 27th, he comes and says, I'm only supposing that that convention you held was illegal. What are you going to do?

SPEAKER_01 53:01

Oh, let me answer that in this way.

SPEAKER_03 53:03

Since you are saying, since you are saying that the party is legally in the hands of Mao Sampa.

SPEAKER_01 53:08

That's what that is the legal position now. Because the only thing, yes, yeah, the only thing that was preventing uh uh Mao Sampa was that the party was held by Chavinga. But the court has ruled that Morgan Imona, who was generating all these letters of appointment to parliament, had made changes to the registrar of societies, the court has ruled that his stance dismissed and his removal in 2024 was valid. So the party at the moment is legally with Mao Sampa. And where is Mao Sampa located? He is with the patriotic front that is being led by Given Lubinda. In my view, the matter coming up on 27th, uh narrated it this way. Mao Sampa as as at today, right now, holds the PF. He's a legal owner of the PF by the judgment of the High Court. But there was a constant judgment in the case of Brian Mundubile, Rafael Nakachinda, and others, and Mao Sampa and others, where the two factions we have reconciled, affirming the position that we've always held since 2021. And I narrated how in 2023, April, when the registrar of societies decided to threaten us with deregistration, because in their view, we had not changed the legal owners of the party. They had said, you know, she had said, We are aware that the former president has resigned, and others like Davis Willard resigned. We, as a central committee, sat and approved a new list of names. The only person that we refused to remove there was the president, President Edgar Long. We said we are going to amend after the conference, but we put in new names of Nixon Chilangwa, Rafael Naka Chinda, Vice President uh uh uh Vice President Given Rwinda to replace Honorable uh uh Inonge Wina. Davis Mila was replaced by Nixon Chilangwa and Rafael Nakachinda, and those documents were were dug. We went to the central committee, processed, uh processed uh fingerprints and submitted the letter confirmed and attested by the chief registrar. But back to the issue. In my view, the judgment of 27th has no effect whatsoever on the conference. What we should recognize is only the court orders from Cabo. Let me call him back so that I can hear his response. So the judgment of 27 is a constant agreement. There are no court orders, there are no injunctions, it's a constant agreement. Where there were court orders preventing the party was on the matters between Mao Sampa, ourselves, and Robert Chavinga. That's where there were all these injunctions and and and uh and uh contempts flying around. I myself had three contempts because I always speak on behalf of the PF. Um okay, I hope he's back on. But what should prevent a PF from having a legal conference this weekend, if they are having one, should only be the High Court order in Kabwe, in my view, which has been overtaken by events. Okay, but maybe you can hear No Emmanuel, no Immanuel, your analysis is wrong. Yeah, please communicate.

SPEAKER_03 56:55

Emmanuel, Emmanuel, look, we've not held the convention, not what people are saying that given Lubin has been holding on to not uh holding the congregation. That is a very wrong narrative. The reason why we've not held the convention is in respect of the injunction which is uh in the in the in Kabul.

SPEAKER_01 57:20

Yeah, correct. Correct.

SPEAKER_03 57:21

And the fear has been that if we hold the convention on the PF ticket, we will be cited for contempt. All right, that's the reason it's not given. People must not bring that's name into dispute because these decisions have been made by everybody and all presidential candidates, including my younger brother Makebi Monde and them, they've all agreed that we cannot hold a convention on the PS ticket, mark that word, on the PS ticket, until the injunction in a carbohydrate is discharged.

SPEAKER_01 58:03

Yeah, now there are two ways of how thank you. There we are agreeing. I feared when you were you were attaching the matter to the matter coming up on 27.

SPEAKER_03 58:17

Listen, listen, Mamba. Now there are two ways of how that matter in Kawe will be discharged. On the 27th, the judgment that will be there is the judgment that is going to deal with who owns peace. Is it Mao Samba? It is the late president Edgalungo and those who are on there, okay, taking into account that some of them resigned, and because they resigned, we had to submit it names to replace them. But that was not action because we have this matter pending in court. Now, if the court of the 27 rules that the party goes back to the original honors or Mao Sampa, then what Chavinga has done in Kawe has no locus. But without either the Camo matter being concluded or the Musaka matter being concluded, whatever is going to be done will not be on PS. And what has changed? If we have said we are not going to go to the convention because of the Cowboy injunction, what has changed today that we can say if we go on the uh to the convention before the 27th, then we are PF. So I still insist that on I'm on the same ground. I'm on the same ground.

SPEAKER_01 59:58

No, I agree with you. Remember what I had stated. No, there you you are now we are all in agreement. I have stated on this program that the only matter that a PF could hold the PF legal away from holding a conference is a Kabwe matter, not the matter coming up on 27th. That one has no court orders, it's a consent agreement, it has no injunction. The only injunction subsisting currently is the one from Kabwe. Yes. And I informed I informed the audience.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:41

Therefore, that injunction in Kito in Kabwe, the ones who sued will have no locusts.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:48

Yeah, that's why I wanted to quickly brief you. So what has happened since then? After Mal Sampa won that case, he has gone to the Kabwe High Court to update the records to substitute Morgan because he was, remember, he was a suing party on behalf of the PF, which now Mouse Ampa holds. So he has applied to that court in Kabwe to say my Secretary General is no longer the Secretary General. So in the suit against Brenda Nurenda, Mal Sampa has substituted Morgan Ngona in that case. And um, you know, as usual, when you have PF cases, the judge, uh I understand, has been in Livingstone for a workshop since Monday. We hope that it can be attended to in the coming week. For me, that is the only thing we we need to, but even that is almost academic with the ruling of the Lusaka High Court. But on record, as we stand now, Miles Ampa has gone to the Kabwe High Court and has removed, has applied to have uh Mona removed because Mona is no longer the Secretary General of the PF. And then it will be a matter between Mao Sampa and Brenda Nirenda, and between them, you know, between Brenda Nirenda representing Given Rubina and others, between them the matter should be settled either by discontinuance or you know by amending the records just to paralyze the process. But the point is for me, as we stand now legally, the party is with Mouseampa. The party is back to the PF because Mouse Sampa is with the PF currently. So the issues of how we hold the conference, I think we should resolve it, in my view, around the cowboy issue.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:49

Heed to my advice. My longest I was coming. Um let's wait for the twenty-seventh. Let's not do things under him.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:15

Oh, he's gone. Thank you very much. That's my elder brother, Honorable Chimbakamburi. I think his his point remains very clear as he had put it in his broadcast that we should hold the conference after March 27th. That is his position. And I was clarifying for myself, and I think for the party to respect any issue, because the narrative is also extremely important. It should only be the cabwe issue. And I would urge the party to spend time on pushing the cabwe issue. Of course, the audience watching would say, and that is why the leadership, you know, in the manner that Lubinda and the Central Committee have been making appointments, they've been conducting party activities, have thought of going ahead with the general conference. How will you call it without even giving it a name is that the party has been having meetings, and the general conference is one of the meetings, and also there is fear. As you saw, how our members were taken advantage of on Women's Day and Youth Day, where our members gather, someone brings his placard to attempt to show that he's leading those structures. So our members are lost, our members are looking for direction, our members have run out of patience for us uh to hold the conference. Uh, if the party who hold any conference this weekend, for me, I still think that that practice that process must be regarded as a consensus building process of who the party should think is the leader of the party. And if the legality will be once restored one day, we can hold a general conference, a proper general conference. But remember, we are already in dire strait. The PF, the UPND may not hold legitimate conferences. You saw the gentleman I I hosted yesterday who has said it's not possible for the UPND to hold a valid, legitimate, and legal conference. Because in their party constitution, they need to start from polling management committees which elect wards, which elects uh uh constituencies, which elects districts, which elect provinces, which elects a national management committee and the president. And you've stated, uh Longo has stated that it is not possible for the UPND to hold a general conference. And as a UPND stand now, it's literally risking to be an unlawful society. He affirmed the position that president. Hakainde Ichilema is former UPND president. Butuka Imenda and others are former leaders of the UPND. And he has proposed that they should have a general an interim committee, not led by President Hakainde Ichilema, but by another set. Who then should run the party and take it to a legitimate general conference? In effect, the UPND do not have a candidate for this year's elections. The PF has these troubles. Because remember, to hold a legitimate conference, you need to give notice to the chief registrar of society for 30 days, the police for 30 days. You can go back to the recent cases of my dear brother KBF and my dear brother Hari Kalaba. Let's start with the case of Hari Kalaba. Hari Kalaba held a general conference. The registrar of society refused that conference. They said you didn't give us 30 days' notice. And there was no opportunity for us to inspect your books and your members and to inspect that the people you are saying formed an electoral college, came together. So that conference was nullified. And my dear brother Harikalaba had to hold a second one. Now, for purposes of general elections, you should hold a valid conference. Any gathering, anyone can hold any gathering. But will it be valid to be accepted at ECZ? Will it be valid to be accepted to participate in the general conference in um in 2026? I saw a statement from the Zambia Interparty Conference also talking about the gaps in the law that have allowed political parties not to respect the law. Because Article 60 of the Republican Constitution, Article 60, Subarticle 2, Subarticle F requires the political parties that are going to general conference, that are participating in general elections must hold general conferences, intra-party general conferences. We seem to have run out of time. Why do I say so? Because an electoral calendar has been issued. The register will be closed. Is it by 1st May? You know, new uh constituencies will be announced that will raise the number from 156 to 226. On 15th April, you have to take um you have to take a thousand members to the ECZ, 100 from each province. They have to be registered as supporters of presidential candidates. A month later, the parliament will stand dissolved, and two days later, there will be nominations for MPs, for council chairperson mayors and councillors and presidents for a period of five days. The PF. I encourage them to hold their party conference as soon as possible, whether under any name or under the PF when it finally comes. Maybe they should hold a two-part process because they've run out of time. A two-part process. If they have planned, as I have understood now, if they've planned for a general conference this weekend, it's just one of the many meetings the PF has been holding. They've been expelling people, they've been holding central committee meetings. A conference is just one of the meetings like an AGM. So they can proceed under whatever they've been operating. And when they have the legal papers, maybe they can call a proper general conference to affirm the decisions that will take place today. Are the warnings of Honorable Cambuli valid? They are valid. But for him, I was just correcting. Between the matter on 27th and the matter in Kabwe, the matter on 27th is a mayor agreement. And even that has been taken by has been overtaken by events. Let's assume let's just discuss that briefly. In that case, Mal Sampa is agreeing with Bran Mundubile, Rafael Nakachinda, and others that the party is one. That's the agreement there. If Mao Sampa wins the case, Mal Sampa holds a PF. If we win the case, the one I have narrated, Lubinda owns the party. So either way, either way, the party remains PF. That's the effect of March 27th. The only thing for me I will express apprehension will be the matter on 20 on in Kabwe. If Mao Sampa effectively substitutes Morgan because it's an injunction, then Mao Sampa can hold the general conference because he's currently the PF owner. What is important is that those records in Kabwe should be updated so that that injunction becomes academic. Not the matter coming up on the 27th, and as I've narrated. Now I saw two calls, including Joseph Willam Dolo. Maybe like Honorable Shimbakam William maybe wishes to say something. Just give me a moment. I see if I can call him.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:11

We want change! We want change.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:15

Honorable um Joseph William Mdolo is on the line, he's one of the presidential candidates. Remember what I was stating that we had um nine presidential candidates, but we reopened and allowed four new candidates. This was uh Joseph William Mdolo, uh, and this was Chanda Katowe, Given Lubinda, and Makebizulu. These were the new entrant to the nine that had already paid. Uh and he has written a very strong letter today where he has opposed the party holding a general conference and he has announced that he will not participate in the process this weekend. He's on the line. Let's hear from Mr. Wheeler Joseph Murolo. My dear brother, the country is listening to you. Make your contributions, Ambassador.

unknown 1:13:04

How are you?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:05

I'm very well, thank you very much. You've been running away. I've been spiteful students. I've been calling you to come on the podcast. You've been running away. Now, here I've got you. Make your contributions.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:19

Okay, so my contribution is very straightforward. Um, I've listened to part of your podcast, say, Wamwamba, and uh I should state that it is very disappointing somehow. Um, the conference cannot be compared to ordinary meetings that PF has been holding on the sidelines. We are talking of electing a party leader who eventually becomes the head of state. How then do that person demonstrate that is going to respect the constitution of Zambia, uphold the governance understanding orders that governs our country? If shortcuts are starting to be made now, I don't see, I and I'm very happy that uh you you provided the background of what really transpired, which led to all these uh battles in the courts. But also has provided some sort of clear, you know, perspective of what has been transpiring from the time that we got to court as patriotic friend. It is also very clear that the reason why maybe we had even some of the bad things that happened during the PF administration is purely because we have people who think they can jump and change the constitution which needs to govern everybody equally. We can't have the constitution that we like, and at the same time, this is a written constitution that needs to be respected. You can't have a person who is going to be elected on the sidelines as a member of Patriotic Front once this person has resigned. It is very, very clear that the moment you step aside to hold a conference with no name, you have resigned from being a Patriotica Front member. Straightforward. You can't come back. If we were to do such, then we can also allow Honorable Mundi to say, come back and feed in the structure when PF is fully regularized and uh the court issues have been settled. We can't allow that. And I'm saying I will wait for the 27th decision of the court, depending on the outcome, then we will hold a convention. We are very sure that the courts have demonstrated objectivity, and I think we expect either way, either Honorable Sampa's convention will be upheld, even if it is not upheld, the party is back. So the fact that the party is back, we are talking a few days to make a proper decision that is going to demonstrate that we can be interested. Should we be given a mandate as a president or as a ruling party? So I'm in disagreement and I'm not agreeing with you, honorable member, that you are providing misleading statements to Zambians. We are setting a bad precedence that will now pass on to the generations to come that whenever there is a political misunderstanding, people can disrespect the process, can disrespect the standing orders, can disrespect the constitution that governs all of us. And that is a very clear position. So whoever is going to attend, who is going to participate in the convention that is going to take place on Saturday or Sunday, that person has ceased and they have automatically resigned from being members of Patriot Flood. Should we encounter a delay on the 27th, then the party leadership can decide to look at the alternative.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:16

Okay. Let me assert two strong words you've used that I'm misleading the country, and number two, that I'm not providing you know sound advice. Um uh let me be very clear. Your assertion that we should wait for 27th March is what I spent time to address, that that is folly. What is at stake now is that the party uh is back with Mao Sampa, who is with the PF. And I've stated that, in my view, the only encumbrance is where we have a court order. On the matter coming up on 27th, which you have cited, there is no legal order, there is no encumbrance, there is no injunction. It's a mayor agreement between two parties. Okay? I think the judgment of serious effect. Just a minute, just a minute, just a minute, I'll let you speak. The judgment of serious effect is the one where Mao Sampa last week obtained, and the party was restored to Mao Sampa. Mao Sampa, who is with the PF? Why can't the PF hold a general conference this weekend? In my view, I've stated on this program is that the pressure should be on the matter where there's an injunction, and the injunction is on a matter that is in Karwe, not on a matter that is coming up on 27th. I think that's a clarification I've been bothering to express myself the last one hour.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:49

That is very true, and that is actually the basis on which the leadership has decided that they should hold a conference without a name. So, what that means is that they will be resigning from particular front. I'm in disagreement that I just I I I pay the nomination to contest as a party leader and eventually be the head of state if people of Zambia give me the mandate. Not on an organization that does not have a name. That will mean there is legal implications.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:27

Someone cannot say now just there, just there, just there, Mr. Midolo. Just there, Mr. Mdolo, just a minute. Who did you pay the nominations to? Did you pay to Chavinga? We paid to the Patriotic Front as an organization. But it was Patriotic Front with the Patriotic Front, the people that received your money. Look, that was a function. Yeah, no, no, I just wanted to clarify. I just wanted to clarify the nominations.

unknown 1:20:00

There was no injunction, but there were illegal issues in court.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:03

So that was some sort of it, there was clarity that just that honorable um Chavinga and Honorable Mmona, they were deemed and which we all agree that they were a faction. Simple as that. So now we are in a situation where the party is back. If Honorable Samta was to make a mistake and be part of the convention that is going to take place on the weekend, automatically he loses the power, he gives back the party to Chavinga as well as Honorable Mona. Honorable Chavinga will now lays a hand to say, you see, this man has resigned. This is the legal implication that is behind this. So whoever is going to be elected as the leader of the party without no name, that person is an independent structure, is not a member of patriotic fund and cannot be entrusted to lead the nation. You were comparing the issue which I said we are discussing the country is that you were comparing meetings that patriotic fund has been having in preparation to fight and reclaim the glory of patriotic fund. You compare it to the convention. A convention is a paramount, you know, um meeting that cannot be uh just be taken casually, because that is a time that we left a person that we trust that one day this person is going to lead us as a president of the country. This person disrespects the constitution at the foundation. When do you expect it? And how it will be it will be shocking to see this person upholding the constitution of the country. Because what is going to happen, these are the issues that we have where you have leaders engaging in corruption, have leaders who are engaging in shortcuts in order to satisfy their personal interest and not the interest of the public. So this has to be very clear, Bamba. You cannot come on this podcast a very respected and important man like yourself. You are not just an ordinary person. You're a person who has served in the senior capacity as a senior uh official of our country. You can't come and start misleading the children who are listening out there, the youth. How do you expect them to respect the constitution? If we become we the leaders, we start teaching and inciting disobedience to the law. That cannot be accepted. It is unconstitutional and should not be tolerated.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:37

You are misreading the people. Okay, just hold on. I've got Honorable Shimbakam Wili here. Don't hang up. Let me hear quickly from Honorable Shimbakam Wili, then I come back to you. Please don't hang up. Um Honorable Shimbakam Willie. Honorable Shimbakam Wili. I don't know if you are listening to the broadcast, but I've got uh William Joseph Mudolo on the other side. He had issued his strong statement objecting to the party holding a general conference this weekend, and he had uh given reasons and he has scored to affirm his position that he did in his letter. Do you have any views or did you didn't finish your earlier thoughts?

SPEAKER_03 1:23:16

I haven't heard what Mudolo was saying uh uh because I was offline.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:22

Oh, what what let me just summarize for him? Yeah, he's on the line as well. Let me summarize what he has said quickly. He has said that we the party is he has learned that the party is holding a general conference in the next few days. And if the party, because of these legal encumbrances, the conference will be held without a name. And he says that would be being disobedient to orders that are before court. That has been his argument. And he says he was disputing my my earlier thought, my earlier position, which I have said that the PF has held meetings, directives, appointments, and this issue has not come up, including the payment Sir Joseph Modolo did to the party. He paid to the Lovinda function. So he says the conference is so paramount because the eventual winner is likely to be a head of state, and he says we can't apply casual approach to it. So now you can make your comment.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:43

Just like Jesus before he died, he said, the issue is straightforward. If you are saying what he did, he has resigned from the party. If your party is no name, it's not PF. And it can be described as an independent party. It can never be described as PF. And my view is that look, we are dealing with the government that is unpredictable. That's why the ordinary member of the party has said, go at two to say that this leader was elected is not PF because he was elected before the legal status is returned to the window or mao sap. And the legal status will only be retained after the judgment of the court on the 27th. Without that judgment, thing that will be held is not PF. And it can never be PF. And I want to tell my older brother, Mr. Dr. Mali, that what he wrote and what you remember are misleading statements and don't mislead the masses, particularly our supporters are ignorant of the law. If you are saying it is no longer PF, what would make you be PS if you want a convention before the legal status of the uh party is returned? Gentlemen, for once, let's do the right thing. Like I said, there's a great thing that when pressure comes, because what we can see here is that you want to hold the conference because of pressure. Members saying, No, we are leaving, you are voting. Tell the members the truth that there's an injunction not to hold the convention on PF, and that is binding. And I have said that this scenario can only be uh uh can only be uh sorted out either by two ways.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:18

Okay, now let me let me pause before I let you go, um let me pause this question to both of you. I'll start with you, Honorable Chimbakambuli, then I'll go to William Joseph Ndolo. The matter is very clear. The the country and all political players have seen that President Hakainde Hlem and the UPND will never give back the PF. They will use legal maneuvers and they will disrespect the law like they have done. They will remove people legally from the registrar of societies. They have delayed the entire process so that the PF doesn't have a leadership, so that the PF does not participate in the elections in 2026. This is an environment that you and I are operating in. Why should it be you, the only one, to ensure that you follow the law, the law that is being used against you, that has been weaponized against you. The judiciary has been weaponized against you. So maybe answer that question because many people who are listening know that look, Mal Sampa has done something wonderful. He has won against and he has gone before Judge Judge uh Limbani in Kawe. For one week, the judge has been unavailable, and that has been the story of PF cases. As a strategy, the the leadership of the PF, looking at the electoral calendar that has been uh issued, the PF may not participate in the general elections.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:54

If the leaders let me ask you a question, so let me just finish. No, no, no, listen. Will the UPND participate in the election? Because they've not ordered the general conference also.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:07

The UPND, as demonstrated by President Hakainde Ichilema, he has abrogated the constitution and he has broke abrogated the law several times, but he knows you you follow the law, and you you be bad by ECZ. The UPND will not be bad.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:52

But can you direct anybody to do anything? And my question is you hold the conference on no name or SPV, and then somebody just sprout out and say that is a uh a sign of uh that people have resigned from BF and the constitution of BF says you can only come back to the PF after three years.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:14

No, my my trouble, my trouble, Honorable Kambuili, has been that when it comes to the general conference, this is where we only want to apply the law. When Honorable Given Lubinda fires, hires, appoints, that is legal. When Given Lubinda says participate in women's groupings, that is legal. Now you have to hold a general conference amongst yourself. All of a sudden that has become illegal. Like I said, there's an environment in which you are operating in. I'll answer it this way: the PF Central Committee, that semi-legal PF Central Committee, adopted the candidate and he won Petaoke. How he won Petaoke, whether under SPV, is another matter. The PF under Lubinda appointed the candidate and nominated the candidate for Chawama. That candidate won. So there is issues of yeah, there is issue of strategy, there is issues, Emmanuel, Emmanuel.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:21

Let's not play with semantics. That candidate did this stand on PF or FDD. The other candidate in social in uh Petaoke, did they stand on PF or NCP?

SPEAKER_01 1:31:35

So, in my view, in my view, yeah, just answering that question before I listen to you, Honorable Capri, I want to bring Mudolo as well. The same way you adopted these candidates, Kasama, Petauke, and Chawama, you can elect a presidential candidate, then you will decide where that presidential candidate will stand, whether under PF or any other faction. But you should not you should not stop processes.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:30

What the UPN is also doing, and it went. As long as that case is not resolved before the 27th or otherwise. That is why has gone to court to apply that because now he has been given uh the authority to have suspected, the court will not automatically discharge that injunction, unless there's an application which powers has made.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:20

Yeah, you saw the record, it was not the money.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:23

What makes it different is that on the 27th, once the party rules that the once the court rules that the matter is back to the original owners, that power matter becomes an academic exercise because those people will have no locus to sue anybody using PS.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:45

Bakalamba, since we are speaking to the country, let me just ask the last question. Uh, what will be the outcome? There are two parties, Miles Ampa and uh uh Bran Mundwil and Rafio Nakachinda on the other side on the on the matter on 27th. What will be the outcome? Let's not assume that we will win.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:02

There is a consent, there is a consent judgment that Mao has found to say that the PF be given back to the original owners.

SPEAKER_07 1:34:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:12

My expectation is that it will be given back to the office bearers that were there before Mao's held the convention, and those who resigned, like Davis Miller, like the former president has died, then it goes back to the members and those who are legally who have remained with the PF, even when that becomes the acting president, the secretary general, lafar, becomes the secretary general.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:45

So yeah, what if it is dismissed? What are the effects? Because there are always two outcomes on and court matter. That's a hopeful outcome. What if it is dismissed?

SPEAKER_03 1:34:55

It will be very funny that the same court that says Shavinga and Mona is no longer secretary general could change its mind and say, Yes, the party belongs to Shavinga. That would be a record. A record decision of a court.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:15

No, I don't think that it they can. I don't think that the party, no, no, I don't think the ruling can go that there are there are just two issues here. The two parties are trying to agree. And uh Robert Chavinga only came in, you know, as uh as a third party claiming process that has been dismissed. So there's two parties if if the matter is dismissed, what is the outcome? Because it can go either way. For me, the way of 27th March will just be what it is today, is that the party is currently under Mao Sampa.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:52

And if we win officially until not legally until the 27th judgment, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:00

Legally, legally, as at today, the party is with Mao Sampa. It's nobody's with nobody else. That's a consent agreement. That's a consent agreement.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:11

Yes, there is a case in court which has to be decided on the 27th.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:16

No, but as at today, looking at the developments that have taken place, the legal owner of the party is Mao Sampa. Well, as at today in life because of that look, Mr.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:33

Mamba, let's not play with semantics. I have told you supporting, yes, the legal owner is Mao Sampa. And to my knowledge, Mao Sampa is not sanctioning and agreeing with going ahead with the convention.

unknown 1:36:49

What do you do?

SPEAKER_01 1:36:50

Um, that I know that's a that's those are administrative issues. After this broadcast, we will go, you and I will call Honorable Given Lubind and others and begin to agree. But for the purpose of this crisis, because you had gone to the media, and Honorable Joseph Mudolo had gone to the media, and there's a boiling discussion in the country. And I've gone to the media to address the two matters that you had put in the media. And I was correcting, for example, the issue of the 27th March and the issues of Kabwe and the issues that occurred in the Lusaka High Court. And then I just gave the history because I was an earlier narrative that has been pushed where you've referred to Davis Mueller as well, is that Davis Muila resigned as Secretary General in 2021 and amendments were done. Again, the secret, the the secret, the chief registrar wrote a letter to us that you suffer deregistration if you don't update your records. And we brought a letter to her that amendments were done in 2022 where Davis Mueller, Honorable Enongewina, and others were replaced. And she asked us to do and submit new fingerprints. And that was done. That was the latest in April 2023. And the records are there. So those were the three major clarifications I was making, including your remarks. But I think we all agree.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:14

And your end by saying, let's read it by saying, Honorable given window, don't be scared of the pressure that you are receiving from people telling you to do the wrong thing. My brother, if you are listening from me, it is not your fault that you want to help the commission. It is because of the court issue. I appeal to you as a leader. Because in leadership, the chairman holds the hammer. It is not the electoral commission, it is not anybody but the chairman holds the hammer to make a decision whether right or wrong. Don't allow the convention to go on before the 27th.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:59

Thank you for that appeal.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:04

I submit.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:05

Thank you. Thank you, Honorable Shimakamira. Thank you for calling. Let me also hear from Honorable Joseph William Mudolo and um let's let's hear your concluding remarks.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:16

Yeah, uh, my concluding remarks basically is very straightforward. No one should support illegalities. Honorable Muamba, you're a very senior citizen of our country. Do not mislead the people of Zambia.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:32

Um, you know, you know, Joseph, William, uh just a minute, just a minute. Hey, hey, hey, hey, Joseph, just a minute, just a minute, just a minute. Um, I I I earlier I heard his insults where he's saying I'm misleading and I'm misdirecting. No, just listen to me, just listen to me, just listen to me.

unknown 1:39:56

Let me finish.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:57

No, no, before you finish, I'll not allow you to disrespect me. No, no, no, no. Just wait. Just let's put some parameters. I hold you in high respect. I expect the same from you.

unknown 1:40:08

I do the same.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:09

Yeah, do do do not abuse me by using. We are live before the country. I have a name, I have integrity, and I'll not be disrespected by anyone, including you. No, I'm not doing that, Ramanda. Yeah, so make your remarks. I've respected you and I've allowed you to speak on this forum. But please don't insult me. Thank you. Make your remarks.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:32

Thank you so much, Ramanda. Look, my sincere apologies if I've made you feel that way, but I'm trying to dismiss your position that the same way the other meetings have been held in Patriotic Front during the time of trying to clean up, it should be compared to the conference. The conference is the most important event that happens in the party because it elects a leader that is going to be entrusted by the people of Zambia. And we cannot make such shortcuts. The reason why we issued that statement, we were in the meetings as presidential candidates, those who have been validated to participate in the election. And what was shocking is that some of the colleagues who are acted, some of them were even lawyers. They were able to justify it. If we decide to hold a conference over the weekend under a parallel structure, we have to admit that those that are uh you know aligned or inclined to participate in that, they have basically resigned and they are no longer particular. Even when issues are resolved, they can't come back that they should participate into that conference. That is the position. So what I was trying to, I was not intending to disrespect anyone or to look down upon anyone, but to dismiss your misleading statement. And this is comparing a conference to other orderly meetings. That should not be entertained. We are trying to trample on the principles of constitutional reforms that should not be entertained. That should not be entertained. We have to respect the rule of law, and that's that holds the country together. We can't have a leader who is elected on illegalities. What are we going to teach those who are coming after us? So, this is a concern that we have to deal with, and this is my message to the country.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:41

Thank you very much. I just take great exception.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:44

Yeah, by the end of March.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:45

Yeah, I just take direction to the I just take great issue when people wish to insult my integrity that I do not allow it, doesn't matter who, yeah, uh including President Akainde H Lema or anyone. So, my dear brother, no, my dear brother, the purpose of calling you was to hear your views. That's the purpose of this platform. You issued a very strong statement, and I felt that you should air so that the country can hear your views. Uh uh, but unfortunately, some choices of your words, personal attacks against me that I take. I apologize on that particular one, but I'll just dismiss it. No, they could not be misleading, it's an opinion. You have an opinion of an opinion. I can't say in my entire broadcast, I have not said your opinions are misleading. Even when I find that they are misleading, but I will not call them that. I have to respect on the law. I have to respect your opinion. I will not call it, I will not describe it, I will not justify it. Is you have expressed an opinion. No, you've expressed an opinion and have to hear it. That's my point. And I expect the same standard. No, listen, I expect the same standard. When I express an opinion, you respect my opinion. The reason I brought you to the program.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:04

It is not an opinion. What you are providing is a misleading statement to compare a conference to an ordinary meeting. This is something to do with the constitution. You understand, you are a senior citizen, you understand the principles of constitutionalism, and you cannot give it a blind eye in order to justify irregularities. That is not acceptable.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:27

To you, to you. Let me make it very clear. Come on, come on. Now we are honorable. Honorable Mdoro, you and I enjoy a good relationship. No, you and I enjoy a good relationship.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:40

You and you know my relationship with you is very caught, very sound. Yes. But when we it's when we mislead the people, I'm not going to look at you to say, because this is my brother. You are my brother, and believe me, after this co after this podcast, we'll be laughing to say, look, this is what happened. But do not mislead the public because we are setting a bad precedent.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:05

Okay. And I want to respect that opinion. That is your opinion.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:09

It's not an opinion, it's a fact.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:11

Uh, are you are you a court of law? Have you are you a judge? What your expression is an opinion.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:18

It is a written constitution which needs to be respected. So I don't need to be a judge as long as I'm a Zambian citizen who is bound to respect, and the constitution defends me, it defends every Zambian. We are there to make sure that it defends the rule of law. And we respect the rule of law. That is what it is. We cannot bring sideline issues into the constitution. The public should not be misled. There are people, our ghana, our people, we have people coming from different parts of the country. Some would not understand the law. If they listen to a senior citizen like you, One Bumba, speaking and justifying what is illegal, that sends a bad perception, and people begin to have mixed understandings.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:07

Okay, thank you very much. Thank you very much. So there you are, colleagues. I'd apologize that I was going to speak for 30 minutes, but you know this program is it just evolves. And when I had calls from senior people like Honorable Chimbakam William William Joseph Mdoloa to uh to take into account. Um now let's attend to just what Joseph Mdoloa said. That I'm misleading you. I'm not misleading you. I'm recognizing that President Hakainde Ichlema is running the country. I'm recognizing that he has embarked on deplatform deplatforming us as a patriotic front. I've recognized that President Hakainde Ichlema doesn't want the PF to be on the ballot. If the PF believes that that judiciary, the police and registrar will grant them the legality of the PF and they sit on their laurels, it has taken us five years where we are. If management of the party take a strategic decision, for example, like to hold this conference, that they wish to hold it. That's why I gave the background to the party. That how have they been dismissing appointing and making party activities? Why can't they hold a general conference? How did the party adopt a candidate in Petaoke? And the candidate won. We urged our members to vote for such a candidate. How did our members vote for a candidate in Chiawama? How is, for example, Brian Mundwille running with the PF members? It's a recognition that the PF may never be given back to the PF. Here we are. The party has come back to the patriotic front through Mouse Ampa. He has gone before that judge who's holding an injunction against the PF from holding a general conference. For one week, judge, at a conference. Those are the mingalators we have seen. Now, to discuss as if we are a lawful country, that there's no dictatorship and there's no president who's determined to disrob the PF from participating in the general election. To pretend that we have courts of law and a constitution that is been that is adhered to, is perilous to both our members and ourselves as a PF. Do I support the decision to hold a conference? I started by stating earlier that for me, the only thing they need to worry about is a cowway uh injunction, not the March 27th, the consent. That's just an agreement. Besides, in real life, Mao Sampa and ourselves are now one. We've agreed. Even before the consent judgment comes. Currently, as we stand now, the PF is with Mao Sampa. The only thing we have to worry about, troubling in my perspective, is the Kawe injunction, where Mao Sampa has rushed to that court to update the records of the court that Ponga Ningona stands dismissed. Am I misleading you? I would never mislead you. I would never mislead. And I will never speak from the narrow perspective of the law alone. I have to recognize the politics and the environment that the PF is operating on. Today, the Human Rights Commission has issued a scathing opinion on Zambia. That President Akainde Chilima is abusing human rights. He has weaponized the law. He has hijacked law enforcement agencies and wings of government like the judiciary and parliament. That's what the human. You that's what the human rights commissioner stated today. So, as a politician working in that environment, you want to rely on the judiciary to give you back the PF. Come on. Are you serious? Do you love the PF? Do you want to continue bleeding the members to other political parties? The Citizen First have put a deadline by 31st, you should submit. I received a lot of calls because the Citizen First is a legal party. It is owned by Harikalaba. Is is is is currently the owner of the party, has gone to general conference and he has put out this advert that he wants a candidate across the country. And people are applying. So PF members were calling me. When are you resolving your issue? Do you want us now to apply Kuliva Citizen First? Or do you want us to apply Kudivar FDD? And operating in that environment, you still want to operate like you control the judiciary, like you are a ruling party. Yes, we have a duty to follow the law. Yes, we have a duty to abide by the constitution. But what do you do when you have an incumbent who's determined to destroy the opposition? Do you sit on your laurels and say, Let's follow the law? Do you know what will happen on the 27th? This judgment should have been delivered in November. Five months later, it has not been delivered. Every day the judge has an excuse. She's at a workshop, she's sick, she's unavailable, the judgment is not ready. Are you sure on the 27th there will be no other story? It would be naive to believe that respecting the law is noble. When you how, like I always say, Kabona Langa is a manda. He wants silence. He wants order. The thief wants order. The thief who's stealing from you wants you to respect his word. The thief who's stealing from you wants you when he says sit down, you sit down. The thief wants to steal while you are silent. Until we recognize the environment we are in, it will be following for the PF to rely in its strategy entirely on the outcomes of the law. Here, there's a new window, very rare window, where they have a party that belongs to PF because Mao Sampa is currently the Deputy Secretary General in the PF. And what I see is administrative is honorable Honorable Shimba Kambu is concerned, Mudolo's concern, Mao Sampa's concern, they should use this narrow window they have and hold a general conference. In light of the injunction, they can still hold it. Like I told you, the PF picked the candidate in Petaoke. The PF picked the candidate in Chawama. That candidate that they can select, they can sponsor him under the PF if it will finally come back. That candidate can be an independent. That candidate can be sponsored by any other political party. But the PF itself must resolve itself and pick a candidate of their choice. To follow legality, avoid the politics, avoid the environment where you have a dictator ruling who's determined to oppress the opposition and you call that misleading, you want to aqualizer. I've seen elections. The first active elections I participated in was the 2001 elections. 2006, I was very instrumental with Kim KBF and Dr. Chulwa to build the PF. 2011, Dr. Chulua died, I didn't participate. 2008, I didn't participate because Dr. Chula decided that we abandoned the PF and go to the MMD. And I disagreed strongly with our position. But 2014 we engineered and ensured that Edgar Lung won. So I personally have also very, very strong, not just legal but political opinions. And I didn't come to this forecast to just discuss the legalities. The legalities have failed us. A party has been stolen from us using legality. A matter has been locked up in court for the last three years using legality. You still want to rely your strategy on legality. God bless our country and and thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:36

We want change! We want change! We want change, we want change!

SPEAKER_06 1:54:41

We want to change the body, too, but you want to get some bangsable, what you've done, what you want is that too bad when we stable, you want to watch it, but you put it in the book, you let them sit one in the cut, it's about the ball of the book, but I'm not gonna put that one up, you must have been a child, but the chat is a very important thing.