HARRY KALABA ON ECL

LIVE NOW; WE HOST HON. HARRY KALABA TO DISCUSS THE ILLEGAL POSTMORTEM OF ECL AND ATTORNEY GENERAL KABESHA'S RECENT RE SPONSE

Transcript

SPEAKER_31 4:24

A high court ruling has temporarily halted the repatriation of former Zambian president Edgar Lungu's remains, escalating a dispute that has persisted for nearly 10 months. The court in Pretoria, acting on an urgent application by the family, has ordered the Zambian government to release the remains to a funeral home of the family's choice, with the order in effect until May 21. To talk more about this, we're now joined by Ambassador Immanuel Mwamba, who is the official spokesperson for the Patriotic Front, the former ruling party of uh Zambia. Ambassador, good evening. Thank you so much for your time. Really do appreciate it. What is the reaction of uh the uh Patriotic Front's reaction to what has been uh playing out between the Lungo family as well as the government of Zambia around the remains uh and the body of uh pro President Lungo? And I asked this given just how unfortunate and perhaps messy the situation has now become.

SPEAKER_35 5:23

We are in total shock, the entire country is in total shock of the events that have occurred the last two days. Um we learned of an activity by the Zambian government that were attempting to illegally retrieve the body of the remains of Zambia's sixth president, Dr. Edgar Chagwarung, from the mochari, from uh the mob that has been holding in the funeral of Pala two mountains. And our lawyers frantically tried to stop uh the Zambian officials accompanied by South African police from taking that body. That body was taken uh in the evening of uh Wednesday, and the family lawyers rushed to the Gauteng Praetorial Court and obtained an interdict to stop the government from uh uh repatriating that body and to immediately surrender the body as it was taken illegally from uh the funeral parlour. And yesterday on Thursday, the families and lawyers and their lawyers were frantically to establish where the body was. The Attorney General of the Republic of Zambia and the South African police did not comply with that urgent order to surrender the body back to the family or to the funeral parlor of their choice. And then we learned very late in the night when they finally found the body, that uh uh a post-mortem was conducted on the remains of the elected president without the authority, consent, or presence of any family member or lawyer for the family.

SPEAKER_31 7:04

Ultimately, this has to be resolved one way or the other. Uh, what is the view of the patriotic front around what the most amicable way is to resolve this ongoing dispute between the family and the government?

SPEAKER_35 7:19

The family has been very clear, and uh the patriotic front has also been very clear. The family wants to put the remains of the late president in Zambia. They want him buried in Zambia, they want this matter to be settled, and it should be done with the wishes of the late president and the wishes of the family. But the Zambian government has been fooling itself and insisting that the late president should be buried in accordance with the state protocols. The former president, President Edgar Lungu, had issues. The family has had issues, and they are merely uh determined that the wishes of the late president are honored, such as that at the funeral and burial that the current president must not attend. And you must know that that is not strange. For example, here in America, there's a famous senator who died and demanded that uh the current president Donald Trump should not attend the funeral. And President Donald Trump respected the wish of the family. In this case, President Hakai H. Lem and his government have not demonstrated that they are willing to honor the wishes of the late president, hence the standoff.

SPEAKER_31 8:37

Yeah. Um, and just lastly, uh the government seems quite adamant, and as they made the case in court, that they are entitled uh to the body of uh former president we want to set a precedent.

SPEAKER_03 8:57

Let them give us reasons why the current president should not go near the casket, and who has told them that he wants to be near the casket anyway? Who has told them that he wants to be near the casket? If they want to say he shouldn't see the body, but who has told them that he wants to see the body?

SPEAKER_04 9:30

Why these speculations? Maybe it's because you're arguing that really this must happen.

SPEAKER_03 9:34

Maybe that's why the assumptions maybe the court was asking them. Presiding. The court was asking, their lawyer couldn't explain, presiding. You yourselves, in your written notes, you were saying Bishop Ariki Bada should preside. So why are you now saying the president will preside? You yourselves. So what is presiding? They couldn't explain what presiding is. The remains of the six presidents have at no point been in the physical custody of the government of Landia. They were held by the South African police. And gonna continue through the property of channels and with the patient is not the life to ensure the audience due to a former head of state are properly discharged. The global funding, the position of the familiar government is what that being proper. The body of the former head of state was never meant to be appointed. And it needs not remained to win. Government willing meant to engage with the family in good faith to find that implement that one is fixed, present, is undiminished. Our position remains unchanged. President Akainde Chile has been consistent throughout. His interest in this matter is constitutional. His concern is and has always been that his predecessor is accorded the dignity the office demands.

SPEAKER_35 13:21

Um we have to be relentless. Sometimes we summon an audience like this at a short notice, like we have done today. I didn't intend to have any broadcast, but looking at the development in the country regarding the matter we've been pursuing the last few days, that of the late president Edgar Chagualungo, I've summoned this uh agent broadcast kindly share, kindly share that we can reach as many people as possible so that we discuss the matters affecting the republic. Our country, I think, is highly, highly tensed up. Our country is is is in serious political and other tensions, and a matter like this, you know, just polarizes us further. And the further mishandling of this matter by the by the state is not helping. Hence, this agent broadcast. I'm privileged that I'll be hosting citizen first president, honorable Hari Calabab. Yesterday I was commending him that he was the first one to respond. As soon as a matter broke out in the evenings of Wednesday, Thursday, Honorable Harikalabad issued a statement condemning the act by the state that it was an African, it was an Zambian. He says they had desecrated the body by picking it up without the authority of any court, without the authority of the family, and they had taken it to an unknown place. And he relied on the statement by the attorney general, who had confirmed that they had the body. And the attorney general had stated that they had relied on the high court orders of 2025, August 2025 to take the body, to keep the body and repatriate it to Zambia for a state funeral. And to see today, the attorney general issue an extensive statement to uh ZMBC and to the country that in fact they've never had custody of this body. It's just not just a lie, but this is indecent in which they've treated this all matter. Um, just an update before I bring in Honorable Hari Kalava. VFE attorneys, who are the lawyers for the Republic of Zambia for the Attorney General in South Africa, have written a very strong letter to the lawyers for Edgar Lungu's family. They are demanding number one that the motor remains of the late president be surrendered to them or to uh a funeral parlor of both mutually agreed uh position. They are saying they are relying on the judgment that they got in August 2025 by Deputy Judge President Ledwaba, and in that the custody of the body was given to the Republic of Zambia. Um, then this evening Murilo Kavesha issued that statement where now he's denying that uh he has not had the body. That is extremely, extremely strange. These are the matters I'll be discussing with citizen first, every broadcast will try to bring an authority on these matters. So quickly share the broadcast, quickly share the broadcast and let everyone know that we are discussing, we are hosting uh my dear brother Honor Bohari Kalawa, citizen first president, in this perilous time. Let me just bring him on. I can see he's in the studio. Honor Boharikalawa, good day, and thank you for joining me at such a short notice.

SPEAKER_04 16:54

Uh, thank you so much, Your Excellency, and uh, good evening, good morning, our viewers from wherever you are watching us from. It's good to be on this uh program. Thank you for having me, Your Excellency.

SPEAKER_35 17:06

Uh Honor Bohari Kalawa, I think I commended you yesterday that you are one of the first opposition leaders that immediately responded in the morning of Thursday when you learned that the body of the late president Edgar Chagualungu was um uh removed from the funeral parlor without the authority, consent, or presence of the family. And you're very alarmed, and you issued a very strong statement. Just speak to that before we come to the latest development, where the attorney general is now denying any involvement.

SPEAKER_04 17:43

Uh, thank you very much, Your Excellency. As I had said in uh that statement which I issued on behalf of our party, the citizens first, I was perturbed, I was taken aback that uh in a time such as this, uh, we can have a situation where a former head of state, a man that had ruled Zambia for seven uh years, could be treated in the manner that uh President Longo has been treated. Uh honestly speaking, uh, this is great shame to us as a country. It is great shame to the region, and it is also great shame to our culture because uh culturally speaking, what is happening should never have happened. Uh the whole nation is in shock, the region is in shock, the international community is in shock because we never expected that things would reach to the levels that they have reached. It is sad that Zambia is finding itself in a kind of a situation where we are now becoming a spectacle to watch by the international community. Zambia was a respected country, Zambia was a country to be uh uh consulted, never to be but today we are seeing that Zambia is a country that is uh uh losing its uh regional as well as international status because of the behavior of those who think that they can rewrite history. It is honestly sad that President Longo has uh continue to be dragged in these matters from the time that uh he passed on. It's almost 11 months that he went to be with the Lord. President Longo still remains a topical subject that has refused to die. I think it is sad. It is high time that we should reflect on this matter as a country. It is not the way to live with fellow human beings.

SPEAKER_35 19:37

The attorney general has issued a statement this evening. He's saying, I want a body of the late president. Number two, he says the office of the president requires that they still accord dignity and respect to the late president. He says the republic owes him the dignity. And he says, even if this process is drawn out, they wait patiently through the legal process. And earlier they had written a letter to uh the family of Edgar Lungu, and they were demanding that the motor remains of the late president be handed over to them. But this is in light of what happened just you know the other day, where we learned that they had conducted an illegal postmortem despite a high court order that was obtained a night before and served to Murilo Kabisha in person, to their lawyers in South Africa, and to all of the parties involved, including the South African Police Service, they did a post mortem on the late president for five hours without the consent of the family, without the authority of the family, without the presence of the family, or his lawyers, the only person that was present is a is a Zambian embassy a Zambian embassy official who's been identified, I've named him here, who was present. When you learned that not only did they take the body, but now they had conducted this illegal autopsy. What are your views and feelings about this?

SPEAKER_04 21:12

Yes, I must say that I'm still very distressed by all this uh drama that has surrounded our country. Uh this morning had a conversation with uh our deputy secretary general, Dr. Kasese Porta, who happens to be a medical doctor herself. And I was trying to find out uh under what circumstances can uh pathologists do what they did on a person without the consent of the family. And uh she was telling me medically, it's uh she couldn't even recall at what point such a thing could happen before a family member is uh informed. And uh, you know, when you talk about burying the former head of state in dignity, how can there be dignity? Excellency, honestly, how can there be dignity when you can go and get uh a body from a mochari without a family being present? How do you want to bury a man in dignity when his family, which should be at the epicenter of everything happening, has been excluded? How do you talk about burying a man in dignity when everything that has surrounded him, from the time that he was sick to the time that he went to to be with the Lord, has never been in dignity. Mr. Lungo has been humiliated in his uh in his death. Uh, just getting his body without his family being around, you defy all logic of what the term dignity stands for. And again, it baffles me myself that the attorney general can uh go back on his word and say that uh they never had custody or they never took the body. It is uh puzzling that uh such a thing can even uh happen. And this has become typical of our colleagues of always wanting to believe that they can sell whatever they uh whatever lie they can sell, believing that people will buy it. This is wrong. This situation has traumatized the country. And honestly, uh Aton General Kabicha's statement has not helped matters. It has further traumatized me because what he's saying is that he's denying what he said. What he's saying is that uh nothing of what uh he said in that letter has ever happened. Now, if a government can uh turn around like this 24, I mean 160, 180 degrees and just do whatever they want to do or say whatever they want to say, it is worrying, uh Ambassador, because uh then they it also shows they don't have respect uh for the family who has lost. They don't have respect for a country that is in mourning, they don't have respect for a region that has been concerned about the demons of President Lungo, if they can only come back to us and tell us whatever story they want to tell us. President Lungu's story is sad. President Lungu's uh issues surrounding him are quite unfortunate. And the nation must begin reflecting on these issues. The UPND leadership must reflect deeply where are we going as a country and what is in it for us as we go like this as a country? What examples are we giving our children? What examples are we giving our region? What examples are we giving our continent? Zambia has become a laughing stock because of poor leadership.

SPEAKER_35 24:37

Indeed, when I learned, uh Honorable Kalawa, when I learned of this matter, you know, uh uh I was privileged to have been Zambia's High Commissioner to South Africa. And I reached out to my former colleagues just to understand what had happened. And uh I was assured that there's no way. Let us assume that Murilo Kabisha is telling the truth. Let us assume that Munilo Kabisha is saying the matter was in the hands of the police. Number one, the police would never defy an active High Court order. There was an active high court order. Number two, he sent me the laws in South Africa. This contact person of mine. He says the circumstances under which a postmortem can be done in South Africa is number one, the person while alive has given consent that a postmortem can be done. Number two, in the absence of this, the spouse, the partner, or a major child, parent or guardian, or major brother or major sister of the deceased gives specific instructions and specific consent and specific signature that an examination of an autopsy can be done. That the postmortem again may only take place when it is a medical practitioner who is qualified for clinical services in the hospital and others, and the others are, I think, are administrative. But the point is, even in South Africa, a postmortem cannot be done without your consent, and without the consent of the family. That's what the law says in South Africa. You and I were privileged to be diplomats. You are, you know, you and President Edgar Lung were chief diplomats. Your former counterpart minister now has issued a statement of regret in South Africa that all this is happening. He has called for truth and that for understanding between the two families. A matter which we have seen has been betrayed by actions like this by the Attorney General. Where do you think the solution lies? And number two, Honorable Kalaba, rule one term, and the way we know things. When you conduct a post mortem, you know the body is so dissected that it is difficult to preserve it. So there are a lot of fears by people that uh either we immediately bury or the body should be cremated. Or present Haka Indech should show leadership and stay away from this process and allow the burial to take place. I don't know what when you begin to think of the solution. I'm aware that you are speaking to the family, you've spoken to Makebu, you probably even have spoken to the former face leader. What are your feelings about all this? Oh, okay. I'll try to reconnect with honorable Hari Kalava. I can see the connection is frozen. Let's just take a small commercial break as I re-establish the link with Honorable Hari Kalava.

SPEAKER_12 27:52

Hello, and thank you for joining us on WardNow. I am Olami D. Adeyami. We begin here in Africa where Zambia's attorney general says the government has uh custody of Lungus' remains, which have been removed from a funeral home in Pretoria. This, despite his family's claims, that a separate urgent court order ruled that Lungus' body will be returned to the facility. The Zambian government says it has now taken custody of uh the former president Edgar Lungu's body for a state funeral. The government had been in a long-standing dispute with his family over where he should be buried after he died at a clinic in South Africa last June while receiving treatment at an um undisclosed location for an undisclosed illness. His family were open to give him a private burial ceremony in Johannesburg that will exclude the presence of his successor and political rival, the incumbent uh president of Zambia, Akande Ichilema. They maintained that one of Edgar's uh Lingu's last wishes, wishes rather, was that um the current president should neither be anywhere near his body nor preside over his funeral. Last year, a South African High Court sided with the Zambian government ordering the repatriation of Lingu's remains for a state funeral. Edgar Lingu led Zambia from 2015 until 2021 when he lost the elections by a huge margin to um HLM. For a closer look at the wave over the burial of Lingo and the Zambian leadership, international relations expert and from the Pan-African Forum Limited, and Dr. David Matsanga joins me from the United Kingdom. Um, Dr. Thank you for joining us um on the board now. Well, this is uh the latest twist that we're seeing in a 10-month angle of what should um happen to the former president's body following a long-standing feud uh between both sides. But aside the court's uh decision, what's your own reaction?

SPEAKER_05 29:57

This is a very sad moment for Africa. It is an African for us to have this as a headline when somebody has died in Africa. We don't go to this level. We have exposed our ignorance of the African values, African customs. I am one of the few people who has written to my young man, he's younger than me because he was part of my group that used to come to listen to my lectures in London when he was in Birmingham University, President Hekilema. I have written to him this morning telling him, please don't do this. If there is a family, you are not next of king. If there is a problem of push and pull, just avoid this public, you know, court battles in and out, in and out. I think the family has a say. If the will says it doesn't want to be buried, whatever it is. I have asked present Kilima to just avoid, leave it, surrender it, let the burial take place, and that's it.

SPEAKER_12 31:16

Um beyond um, you know, the court rulings, this is a really difficult uh time for the family. Um now the government says that they do not want to, you know, um accept this uh court ruling. But how should one interpret uh the Zambian government's insistence on on a state's funeral? Considering, I mean, it was their president at some point, but to you, does it reflect genuine national protocol? Or this is another political calculation?

SPEAKER_05 31:42

It's a political calculation because he knows he's gonna lose the job. There's an election in uh just coming in a few months in in Zambia, you know that. And he wants to use the body of the money he hated so much to have a political capital. So I don't think the family is willing to go that route. This man had a bad relationship with with the late. They were they had battles, he had removed the cars, he had removed the security, he has told him to remove, to return everything that was worth. Then why do you want him when he's dead? I think on this one I stand with the family. The family has a right to take their person, they are the next sub king. Mr. The President is not the next sub king. Mr. Hekrema is not the next subkin to the Mr. Lumbu. Why is it so personal? He hated him when he was alive, he never gave him medicine, he never allowed him to go out for even treatment. You can imagine. So, why do you want him now? He's dead. Above all, this is a shame, a big shame for Africa. And in fact, it's a big, big shame for us Africans to pretend to be.

SPEAKER_35 33:00

I can see citizen first president, Honorable Harikalwa is back. Honorable, I'll just ask you to put the phone in the landscape. Let me just take you to the studio as you do that.

SPEAKER_05 33:10

Doing things like the things on the lion and the jewel of Lakunule. You know, there's no need of fighting over dead body. You are head of state. If the family says he doesn't want to see you, leave him.

SPEAKER_35 33:24

Why do you we'll play that video later? We have Honorable uh Hari Carabas, citizen first president, former minister of foreign affairs, one of the longest serving foreign affairs ministers in our country. He was former uh, you know, member of parliament for Bahati uh for many years, and you know, he founded Citizen First, uh, and he founded an earlier party that they tried to deplatform him. I always commend him that he built a new party from scratch. The video I was playing, and I'll play it later, is a former lecturer to President Akainde Echilema from University of Birmingham, and he has expressed disappointment with his former student, he's also a political analyst. He says, President Akainde Ichilema, just step aside. You know on the body say family. No matter how much you try to justify issues of state funeral, state functions at the center is the family. We are looking very bad internationally, and uh you you you a foreign affairs minister, just explain to us what this has done internationally.

SPEAKER_04 34:33

Uh, thank you very much, and uh my apologies, uh Ambassador. I think uh the network is playing up in this country. Nothing seems to be stable in our country now, everything is just playing up, uh, including norms. We can't even keep our own norms, our culture, we can't even uh uh adhere uh to our cultural practice. Uh look, I think I can't belabor this point. Um at the opportunity to listen a bit from the professors who were speaking, uh, clearly everybody is uh dismayed by uh this behavior. Uh internationally, it has left Zambia very weak. It has uh taken us off the radar as a country that should have uh should be consulted. It has also exposed our leadership. Uh clearly that Zambia is struggling with a leadership that can inspire. Uh nobody is going to come to Zambia now or in the near future to consult on anything if we cannot even agree amongst ourselves on how our former president should be buried. It has taken us 11 months to deal with this matter, going into a year dealing with this matter, until now when we have a situation where the attorney general is refusing the very things that he said. Uh government has insisted on uh doing a uh a postmortem on the late president without the family being there. I mean, come on, ambassador, it is uh just not on. It is uh humiliating. It is taken away from us as a people. And this um has exposed Zambia internationally. We have lost a lot in the sub-region. We have lost a lot on the continent and internationally. So everybody is asking. You won't imagine how many calls I received just the other day when this story uh came out. Everybody is asking, Zambia, don't you have better things to do? Why would you be busy with uh somebody else's body? I mean, why would you be busy in the country uh failing to bury your own president? So everybody is talking about it, everybody is laughing at us. We have become a laughing stock. Uh the other day I tried to to reach out to the former first lady uh just to to see how she was doing and to encourage her. I had no words even to talk to the former first lady, because uh you cannot imagine this even on your worst enemy. Honestly, you can't. Apart from grieving, we have the Lungo family has literally been humiliated. Uh we have seen what has happened to them. A lot of issues are surrounding that family. If this is what it entails, to lead a country and be punished in such a manner, very few people would be willing to go through such. I don't think leadership should amount to this. We don't want ourselves, in the event that Mr. Ichilema uh will replace Mr. Ichilema in government, we wouldn't want Mr. Chilema to go through what is uh making the the Longo family go through. I think it is it is high time that the president uh uh put things in place and ensure that the Lungo family find uh time to rest as opposed to what they are going through now. Surely, internationally, we are a shame as a country.

SPEAKER_35 37:47

Honorable Harikawa, before I let you leave, the aton in general has always used national interests, people's interests, state interest as reason to do what they are doing. Uh, they said they want to bring honor to the office of the president, and that President Edgar Lungo was president for seven years, and and that he was commander-in-chief for the same period, and therefore, as a republic, and as a people, we owe him that state funeral. Uh, the the the the government and the UPND believe that that primary reason should be respected. Is there a function as high as this that can be done without the president? Because they seem to be confusing and conflating the issue of the president being present at a state function. They think the president is a state. I don't know what your views are, especially that you are uh you were a minister of foreign affairs, and if there's anyone that would know what a state is, what a country is, what a republic is, and the differences and the office of the president, it would be you. Just explain. In light of the wishes of the late president, that president Hakainde Echilema should not be in any part of the ceremony. Can we hold a state function without a president?

SPEAKER_04 39:05

Yes, actually, we can hold a state function without the president being there because the state is not the president per se. The state is the people. And uh state craft requires that if the president is not there, the vice president could have officiated, it would still be a state function. Uh, a minister could have officiated, it would still have been a state function. Therefore, it did not necessarily require President Ichilema to be present at this uh function for it to be called a state function. So it baffles me when I hear people say, no, you can't exclude the president from a state function. A state function is where a government has an interest. A government has attended. It's a state function. Uh members of cabinet constitute a state function. Uh in fact, even permanent secretaries who are given delegated authority will still carry out a state function if it's from cabinet. So when people talk about state function, the president should have attended, we would have buried President Lungo without Mr. Chilema being there. A 21-gun salute could have been given to the president, having served this country for uh seven years and having uh ascended to the highest office of president, he was entitled to that. But when you begin insisting on giving him a dignified send-off, when you have humiliated the whole processes of nature, you have culturally humiliated the family, you have literally swept the carpet off the feet of everybody else except yourselves, and you're not telling us the reasons why you are pushing this agenda. I mean, where is the dignity there? Where is the dignity talking about that to worry a man in dignity? When he himself, uh when he was alive, you didn't give him the dignity. He was humiliated. Look at the way President Lungo traveled when he was going to South Africa. I was one of the last people, Ambassador, who talks to him uh when he was going to the airport. He had to ask me uh to see if uh he could be assisted to leave uh the country. I was one of those who was playing uh my role in the background. Even the time that he reached the airport, even the time that he went on the aircraft, I was talking to the president. Even when he reached South Africa, uh he was courteous enough to get back and say, we have uh arrived. He had challenges leaving because even when he was going, he was like, I don't know whether I am going to go or not. If I don't go, we can have a meeting later on in the evenings, meaning that he was not sure whether he was going to leave the country. If he was not given the dignity when he was uh sick, if he was not given the dignity uh when he was uh arriving in South Africa, he arrived like a common person, a former president. Why didn't you care at that time to give him the dignity when he was arriving uh in a foreign country where you should have shown that you give respect to former leaders? Why didn't you give him that respect? Why didn't you even know where he was staying when he was in South Africa? So these are things, ambassador, that uh expose hypocrisy. These are things that show you that people just want to talk the talk and don't want to walk the talk. So don't talk to me about uh laying the former president in dignity when you never gave him the dignity when he was alive. Clearly he was humiliated when he was alive. How would you give him the dignity after you have already humiliated him? Because it would have been good for you to give him the dignity when he was alive, and maybe even humiliate him in his death. Why would you want to insist on giving him a 21-gun salute uh when he's in his grave? I don't think uh when he's in his coffin. That's not the way to go. I think it is important for us that we put record straight. There is no dignity to be given to President Lungo when the family is being humiliated in the process. The president requires to be to be, I mean, it would be important for us to give him the dignity by uh listening to his wife, listening to his children. What did the man want? If what the man wanted was a private uh funeral, a private burial, a private send-off, let us give him then that dignity. That is what is called dignity.

SPEAKER_35 43:24

Um we've got a huge audience watching with us, and I know and uh open the phone lines, and you may not be here. The issue of the state of the country, state of the nation always comes up. We are here because of leadership, leadership that the country is regretting. And they're looking up to the opposition. I know, like you are saying, some of the last images we have is you and Honorable Edith Nawaki and President Lungo together. This is after you had left Tonsei Alliance, but we saw. That picture of the three of you. Now, the callers are going to ask, what is wrong with you, the opposition? You know the state of the country. You know the state in which we are now divided, polarized, regionalized. Even the argument on social media, we can see that uh the country is heavily divided. We don't even know if we are going to have free and fair elections, whether they'll be democratic, whether they'll be credible, whether they'll be transparent. They are looking to you the opposition. And the question that nags all the time why can't you come together? Maybe speak to the issues of unity and also make an appeal to your colleagues to work together. Because in the end, it comes to how shall we redeem our country? If you are fragmented and you are disintegrated, our people fear, despite what you've witnessed the last five years, you are going to give an opportunity to President Akainde Hilema to return to power because of your disunity and your disintegration as the opposition. Just speak to the issues of unity. Okay. Let's just wait patiently. You know, these remote connections, like he was bemoaning himself. That's nothing seems to be working in our country. Um I'll be bringing Honorable Harikalawa. Let me just re-establish the link again.

SPEAKER_03 45:41

The remainder of the 60 presidents have at no point in the physical president of the people.

SPEAKER_35 46:33

Honorable Hari Kalaba is is is back. Um we lost you there, Honorable Hari Kalaba. Um I was bemoaning. We have a huge audience watching, and one of the issues they will raise when I opened the phone lines is about you, the opposition. You are one of the leading uh contenders to replace President Hakainde Ichilema. Our people fear that without unity, you are giving way to President Hakainde Ichilema to return to power, despite all these lamentations, or now cultural, social, economic, and other issues, the state of our country clearly is in paralysis. But the opposition, there's pressure on you to come together. Just speak to the issues of unity of the opposition and your own efforts, what you've been trying to do.

SPEAKER_04 47:23

Thank you, Excellence, for that opportunity. I think I want to tell the nation that as citizens first, we have taken the issue of unity very seriously. And in fact, if there's any reason why we should be talking unity now, it's because of what is happening in our country. Uh, sacrology has been put on trial, and uh our country doesn't seem to agree on anything. I think it's a time for us to put aside our differences and hold on, uh, even in dignity of those that have gone before us. Uh we as citizens first have uh not just been talking the talk on unity, we have been walking the talk. Uh we have gone ahead to have talks with our colleagues in the opposition. We have had talks with uh President Makebizolo, uh very serious talks, and we are still in those talks. We have had talks with uh President Given Lubinda, I have been to his residence, not once or twice, just to ensure that opposition unity is enhanced. I have been to the home of uh President Fred Membe again just to have uh those talks enhanced. I have been to to the home of uh President uh Mao Sampa again in the hope of having uh uh opposition unity, just like I have also been to the home of uh President Shimba Kambuili again in the uh is trying to enhance unity. I have been to President Sakuiba Sikota's residence, even as late as today, I was at his house. I have been at the office of uh Madam Shalagateka again just to push for for unity. Uh the day I was at uh I was at the funeral. Uh uh President Munduvile had uh lost his sister-in-law, and I thought that uh sometimes in Stockholm Radire, in times of difficulties, I was there at the funeral with Honorable Mundubile to commensurate with him. So we are doing all these things because the need for us to bridge the gap, there's a need for us to heal the divide, so that uh at the end of the day, it is up to these things are granted by God. Uh, when all the Lord has uh given the privilege to so be it. However, it will be. I think ours will be to toe that line and just uh create unity. Because if we don't do it now, your excellency, if we don't do it now, I try to imagine what will happen in the most unlikely event that Mr. Ichilema uh took power in August. I try to imagine how much it will become. Um I I I doubt there will be opposition even to talk about, because all this will be decimated. So it's either we unite or we perish. And this is the time for Frank talk for us to look at each other uh honestly, colleagues. We can do this, and nobody will do it for us. Dr. Kaunda and his colleagues did it. Dr. Kaounda could not have been the most intelligent at the time, but he was he was favored and he took the mantle to lead the country, and we got our independence. The same thing would be 1990, 1991, and he came together. Uh, I don't think Luba was the most intelligent of those colleagues of his who sat and uh chatted the way forward for our country. But of the day, colleagues, Arthur Wiener, Amphil Mulemba, and all those guys who were around chose to say this time will allow President Chiluba to lead us. So if examples have been laid in the past, we still have an inresponsibility as leaders today to say yes, I as Harry Kalaba would want to lead. But if my colleagues feel it is not my time, it is okay. Anybody else can lead us, and for me and the bad citizens first, we are good to go.

SPEAKER_35 51:16

Thank you. The the last issue. I've noted that uh the president, President Akainde H Dema who's now in Kasama, uh, had announced that he'll be in in official ceremonies that he had planned, including the opening of uh uh the power plant, solar power plant, and that he had a trip to Eswatini because we saw I saw communication from Eswatini announcing the arrival of the president. Those two events were suspended during the period we are talking about where the body was illegally retrieved from a morgue and illegal postmodem was done on the remains of the late president. So I've just seen an announcement that the president will now eventually go to Eswatinia Foreign Affairs have issued this statement. What should be the solution if those two events were occurring? Probably they were briefing the president. What should be the ultimate solution if you were president and a former president has died who wishes that you shouldn't be at the burial? Can you step aside? What should be the ultimate solution to this matter?

SPEAKER_04 52:33

I'll tell you, Excellency, without even politicizing the matter, that Uko Angala Tabapatikisha, if I am told by the owners of the funeral that I should not be present at that funeral, I will not take myself there. Dr. Kaunda, I went I think it was 1980, 1980, 1981, when Kapoepu died. Dr. Kaounda wanted was told that he was not going to make a statement at the funeral of uh his comrade, Kapoepue. What happened, Dr. Kaounda to make a statement at that funeral? He was stopped from making a statement. And Dr. Kaunda obliged as head of state. He obliged and allowed the wishes of the family to prevail. Even now, I were in the cave uh if I were in the shoes of uh president Di Chilema, and the family insists I should not attend that barrier, I would honestly not attend, I would send the vice president to go and attend, I would ask a number of colleague ministers to go and attend, and I tell them in spirit I'll be with them, because I have been asked politely by the family to stay away. Nothing that is complicated. And it's not the first time that we are witnessing that. I don't know about the president's postponement of those trips that he should have made. But again, if I were in his shoes at a time when the country is told these issues, this is one of the issues a form, this is one of the issues a president cannot afford to elect silence. This is a topical issue in Zambiya now, and a president should rise to the occasion and speak to this matter and clarify this matter without lethal hindrance. If you can't talk to a topical issue such as this, then what would you talk about? Because this is an issue that has uh enraged a lot of citizens. This is an issue that the president should have put to rest. Just yesterday, when everybody was speculating or the other day, the president should have addressed the nation on both TV and radio so that all those so that all citizens can listen to him. But he has not taken the trouble to do that. And I don't think he's even going to address the nation on an important matter such as this. So, what does he do? He leaves us to be talking or to be speculating. However, one thing we have is that what has happened without the family being around when there was uh a postmortem going on is uncultural, it's uncodful, it has us as a people, and Zambia now has become a spectacle. The religion is one done. What has become of our country?

SPEAKER_35 55:40

Thank you. I'll be I'll be allowing citizen first president honorable Hari Kalawa to leave. Uh but let me just ask him a political question to close, and then I will open the phone lines for your views. Uh Honorable Hari Kalawa, the country is going to elections just in the next uh three, four months. And of course, we've already tackled the issue of unity and we applaud you for the efforts you are making amongst your colleagues to attempt to bring them together. And I'm glad that you are saying you're the one that has visited the leaders, your fellow leaders, Honorable Fred Membe, Honorable Make Bizul, Honorable Given Lubinda, Chimbakamwili, Mao Sampa Kebief. You are the one that has gone to them, to Shalakateka, Sebastian Kopland. That's that's very that's very good. And Sadiva Scota. Yeah, but we have an election in the next three, four months. Uh 12,200 polling stations, 1,875 counselors, 226 constituencies. Is a citizen first prepared to go to elections now? Um with or without unity in the opposition, how prepared are you to cover these immense tasks ahead of you?

SPEAKER_04 56:59

Look, there are two things here. Um there are a lot of things that have happened in the very past uh in the very few uh past months, which have changed the political scenario of our country. And anybody looking at our job, uh realistically so, would agree with me that uh running in this election independently or alone doesn't help matters. Unless you just want to participate and be part of statistics, you would want to say we are going to go it alone and participate alone. We as citizens first don't want to participate in this election and just add to statistics. Would want to go in and win the elections. This is why, Your Excellency, we have insisted on going to visit our fellow colleagues and seeing how we can close ranks and help uh go beyond these challenges of how we can manage all these more than 12,000 polling stations. We need uh uh to train uh agents to protect our votes, we need to field parliamentary candidates, we need to field counselors, we need to field uh mayors and council chairpersons. This is a huge task which requires honesty. Yes, we have prepared, and I think I'm happy to report that we are among those parties that have prepared to go for elections uh uh in August this year. But truth be told, we need others on this journey. Truth be told, we need to hold hands. The African adage which says if you want to go fast, go alone. But if you want to go far, go with others. We want to believe it is true. We want to go far. And by going far, it means we want to fill in all the constituencies that have been uh brought about by the new dawn or by by the by the European administration. We would want all of these parliamentary seats uh filled up, and we wouldn't just want them to be filled up by the citizens first, we would want other political parties to have a stake in filling up those uh seats so that we can be very formidable as we go for these elections. My clarion call using this very esteemed platform is to my colleagues in the opposition that let us hold hands. The people have spoken, the people have told us that we need to hold hands, but no choice in the matter because the masters have spoken. What we need to do is to hold hands, see ways of closing ranks and making an effort to reach our master's uh clarion call. We as citizens first are answered that call of hiding what the people out there want. And I know, and I can tell you from this uh platform that my discussions with uh state councillor Kivaskota confirm that. My discussions with Bran Mundvili, even as late as yesterday, confirmed that. My discussions with Chichimba Kambuili, my Dr. Chichimbakambuili, my discussions with uh President Sampa, my discussions with uh uh Honorable Koplande, my discussions with uh uh Council Makebizolo, my discussions with uh uh President Lubinda and everybody that I've met, uh Mr. Fred Mem Dr. Fred Membe, they have all said we need to close ranks. So, Madame Michal Agateka, who has been going around our offices as well, knows we need to close these ranks. Therefore, all of us have agreed that we need to do it. We have talked enough. It's time to act.

SPEAKER_35 1:00:34

Wonderful, wonderful. Thank you very much, Mr. President. I'd like to thank you. You came at such a short notice. I only gave you 20 minutes. I didn't even know I was going to have this broadcast. But when I was far away, when I learned of the issues, I quickly ran to my small uh studio here, and I wanted a guest, other than you know, uh my own voice, and you've responded at a short notice. That's leadership. I'm grateful. But please promise me there are a lot of political issues beyond this that we've been discussing. We are worried about the state of our country if we have to hold credible, free, and fair elections. It looks like we may not have democratic elections, especially with the passing of Bill 7, the electoral process bill. I would like you, when I think we deal with this current crisis, to come that we can have that discussion.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:26

It will be an honor, to be such an honor. I really look forward to that uh opportunity.

SPEAKER_35 1:01:31

God bless you, thank you. We'll release uh uh the president uh of Citizen First, and uh we will invite you for cause over the matters, the latest development. Honorable Harikalaba, thank you and God bless you.

SPEAKER_33 1:01:46

The party, friends, and all. So I only lamented that why should you be stripping me of these things and then pushing me and saying, no, we want to protect you. No, uh you see demeaning of the president to be seen, to be going without this or that. I said, I I I I I don't need you. You don't need me. So I was very clear. I'm not complaining at all. The time that I have complained is when I've been harassed. I said, You've tripped me of everything by leave my liberty, my dignity and my rights. That's what I'm saying, even now. You see, one minute I walk the street, somebody says you can't walk the street because you're full president. You are in danger of being attacked by people like to attack you and be blamed as police. That's why we're following you. The next minute I said, But you didn't know that I'm full president. When you shoot me of these things, please why don't you put your house in the other? The next minute I was about to change somebody to change and say, Oh, the party, friends, and all. So I only lamented that why should you be stripping me of these things and then pushing me and saying, No, we want to protect you. No, uh, you see the demon of the president to be saying to be going without this or that. I said, I I I I I don't need you. You don't need me. So I was very clear. I'm not complaining at all. The time that I have complained is when I've been harassed. I said, You've tripped me on everything by live, my liberty, my dignity, and my rights. That's what I'm saying, even now. You see, one minute I walk the street, somebody says you can't walk the street because you're former president. You are in danger of being attacked, and people might attack you and you'll be blamed as police. That's why we're following you. The next minute I said, But you mean you didn't know that I was former president? When you stripped me of these things, please go and put your house in order. The next minute I want to go to church, somebody goes into church and says, People, the party time to bury the coffin was smashed.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:50

Most people think we smashed it because it came from the government. No. That's not what I want you here as well. Yeah. No. My father. My father. The broken coffin was put in the grave. But we could not bury my father in that coffin because but meaning he was from the royal line.

SPEAKER_30 1:04:13

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:13

And when you're from that line, you are buried in a cattle hide, Nympasa. And that was the tradition we were following because that those were my father's instructions. Nothing to do with politics. No, it was not politics. Maybe you were furious in because the president had been uh prosecuted. No, no, no, no, no. I see. It was it was tradition. That part was tradition. Right. When it came to shall we give the speech, blah blah blah. Now the president of the Republic of Zambia will stand up and make a speech. My sister stood up and said, There will be no speeches. And Kaunda was already standing at the microphone. He was about to speak. He was about to speak. She said, There will be no speeches. You will not speak. How how dare you that you can approach the sitting head of state who is about to start speaking and tell him you can't speak? You can't speak. You did that? Yes. Wow. And credit to Kaounda. He turned around and he went and sat down. It must have been not pleasant for him. Yeah. But he did it.

SPEAKER_35 1:05:15

He oh bless the soul of Dr. Kenneth David Kaunda, president, first president. Imagine his stature. This is a man that could walk into Washington, could walk into London, could walk into Peking, could walk into Stalingrad Russia at the time. He's at the funeral of Mulinga of Kapwepwe, Simon Mwansaka Pweepwe. And he's being told, remember, these are Estuar friends from childhood friends, but the politics strained them from 1968. And when Simon Mwansaka Pwepwe beat Kaunda's candidate for the position of vice president and became the vice president of the country. The division even went further. And by 1970, Kapwepwe had formed his own political party and he was persecuted, his members were locked up. He participated in election won, but by 1973, there was now a one-party state. Both Arimwang and Simon Monsaka Kapwepwe were excluded from the political process by those emergents. And by the time that Kapepwe was dying in 1980, remember he tried to participate in the elections of 1978 in Unip to attempt to come back to UNIP. Because it was a one-party state and he was outside the political process. He was harassed, he was beaten in Kamuala, and you know, he was humiliated. So when he died in 1980, you can imagine the tensions. And the wish of the family was that Dr. Kawunda could not speak at that funeral. And Dr. Kaunda, being head of state at the funeral of a man who was former vice president, he tried to speak and stood. And you heard Mulenga Pweepwe narrate that one of our sisters walked up to Dr. Kaunda and said, There'll be no speeches. And she commends Dr. Kaunda's graciousness in leadership. That the man decided to stand down. He didn't speak. He realized family wishes were more important than the politics. Why can't President Hakaiinde Echilema step aside and allow this process? I don't want to push on Bohari Kalaba, but he's done very well. Here I was telling you the other day that president during the period there was that uh illegal movement of the body and the post-motiment, President Hakainde Echilema suspended his trip to Mansa and to Eswatini. Today we have an announcement that he's going to Eswatin finally. And he went to Mansa and uh hopped into Kasama. I saw him with uh Winel Wemba in Paramount Shift Timkulukamanga uh the second. Um uh um the lines are open. What are the issues? Today VFV attorneys wrote to the family of Edgar Lungo's lawyers, they are demanding the motor remains of the late president. They are saying that they are relying on deputy judge president Ledua's judgment in August 2025, and today what even disturbed me was a statement this evening by Murilo Kabesha, clearly lying. He forgot that BBC, uh SABC and other media, ZNBC, have quoted this extensive statement where he celebrated we have the body, we now have the body, we've put it at a government facility for eventual repatriation for burial, dignified burial as they want to call it. Today he says they've never had the body. He says the body has been with the police. We know, the police know that they can't have that body without the consent of the family. Even if they are doing an autopsy, even if they are doing a criminal investigation, there are rules and regulations that guide that process. They were aware of a high court order, an active high court order. They proceeded, they defied that court order and proceeded to conduct an illegal autopsy for five hours. And by the time the lawyers for the family were Makebizulu was finding where the body was, it was late in the night, and it took the lawyers to call the South African police who seem to have expressed ignorance. You know, um, I think the cause are coming in. Let me allow the cause ringing in. That's what we are discussing today, and I want uh you to comment on these developments. Honorable Muriloka Wesha, in any other jurisdiction, you would resign. You cannot issue a statement on Wednesday, and today disavow that statement, run away from it. You said you are the body, you said the body was handed over to you by the high court. You said you had custody of the body. Today you are to tell us the body is with the police. I've I've I've I've got a first caller. Um uh let me begin to take the course. Hello, caller. Please tell us your name and where you are calling us from.

SPEAKER_14 1:10:36

Good evening, hello Alex. Yes, Alex. Uh I'll be very grateful. It's very sad that today, and it's very sad that we our our chief is not in progress, and of course, the council that we have not spoken to these issues. First, I'm very sad about it. Secondly, uh, I'll be I I won't be surprised that the government in the next few days or hours they will announce that we have this matter to the court. So the family can go ahead and buy. So this clearly shows that uh indeed without yes, I'm saying this without the truth, but there are rumors that uh when they collected the border, even what you are saying, you are just saying the hours, the hours that uh they were doing the transporting, but we're not talking about the night before that because the rumors that it is he was in the he was he was in South Africa and on zero five, he was given the body. So, what is it that you uh there's nothing at the moment even I'll be like I wouldn't be surprised if you're going to say that now your family can have the body because all what he has wanted to do is that and I'm just condemning the act of satanism, the act of evil, but I know that a god shall indeed expose them, and if this ritual that they are doing is in line with the elections come 2026 on the 13th of August, God shall need show him that he's a God easier, he's a god of Zachob and being of the soil. Thank you.

SPEAKER_35 1:12:29

Thank you very much. I was privileged to have hosted Honorable Harikal, our citizen first president, and he has made profound remarks while he was here, including political issues of unity. Um, I welcome his sincerity in calling for unity and attempting to help unite in the background the opposition. Alokola, please tell us your name and where you're calling us from.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:53

Good evening, Ambassador. My name is Ambassador Dr. Mwara Kete Botta.

SPEAKER_35 1:12:58

Your Excellency, how are you?

SPEAKER_20 1:13:00

I'm well, but obviously I'm very disturbed with uh what is happening in this country. I keep cracking my head. I've been checking the textbooks of medicine, trying to find out what kind of public health emergency could have led my good government to behave in the way that they have done in conducting uh a postmortem without consent of the family.

SPEAKER_35 1:13:32

Now, now, doc, we know you as a diplomat, we know you as you know our ambassador at the UN. Sometimes we forget that you are a medical doctor, in fact, of high repute. Speak to the issues of this post mortem, and as a doctor, just give us an opinion.

SPEAKER_20 1:13:51

You know, I still I am at pains trying to understand what exactly led to the contours to the government to perform this postmortem. You know, president uh the late president had been sick, and his doctors had already certified and they had written what he died of, you know. And uh at some point, just after he died, there were those conversations between government and the family, and they were ready to repatriate the body until something else happened, circumstances beyond the control of both parties, and they could not bring the body back to Zambia. It has now been 10 months, going to 11 months, you know, without uh the president being buried. And for anyone who has died, yes, the people, the government can uh request for a postmortem, but you only request a postmortem where you suspect the the police are involved, where there is the issue of murder, where there is the issue of sudden death, where there is the issue of somebody dying within 24 hours of arrival at the health center, and you do not have sufficient medical history to warrant the fact that somebody can die in such sudden circumstances. This is where a postmortem is done. A postmortem can also be done if they want to bring the body on a private, on a public uh airline. But all these postmortems for them to be done, the family always gives consent. The next of king always gives consent. President Edgarungu was not an island. He has left a widow, the former first lady. He has left his children, he has left his brothers and sisters and nephews. Any of those could have signed off on this postmortem being done. But this was done without the family. So for me, I'm requesting that government must give us a statement to tell us what necessitated for them to perform this postmortem. Because clearly there's no indication for this postmortem, but they themselves know what the indication is, and they must give us. You know, there is no public health emergency that needed the postmortem to be done so that we can save lives of those that are around President Edgar Lungu or those that are going to be in contact with the body. There's nothing like that. So why did they do this? And also the family has said, let us bury President Edgar Lungo the way we want him to be buried. Because President Lungu was a father. He was a husband before he even became president. We saw what happened in Zimbabwe. The former first family refused to have uh President Robert Mugabe buried at the hero's uh uh grave there, you know, and the government complied. What is wrong with our government? Why is it only our government which is not listening to what the people of Zambia are saying? When you go to government, it's about give and take. It's like diplomacy. You listen, you give your views, you also get the views of others. And you wait and you realize that here there are certain sensitivities that you must play to, you know. But for our government this time around, it's their way or the highway. Whatever they want happens. You cannot have a government like that. A government must be listening to the people. We gave them the mandate to be our leaders and they must listen to us, not just what they want. So this thing about um this way the postmortum has been done is being discussed globally. You know. I read somewhere where somebody actually wrote in the Harvard group. They said, watch more, what is happening in your country. And this is exactly what the conversations are. Our friends in South Africa are equally apart. You know, you and I are receiving messages. People are questioning us, what is happening? This is because this government has demonstrated inability to dialogue. You know, they cannot dialogue with anybody. Wherever they go, they feel they should just give lectures because in them they carry the best practices of Zambia. In them, they have the best God-given uh brings to Zambia. And that is what is happening. But they must learn that they are there for us, they are there even for the former leaders, they are there for the family of uh the late president. So they must be sensitive even to how the family is going to react. This is no longer about a mengato of politics where people should say we must win at any cost. Thank you, Ambassador.

SPEAKER_35 1:19:13

Thank you. Thank you for those insights. Indeed, this matter is being discussed internationally. That's why even the video I've shown you and I'll show it of the former lecturer to President Akainde HDM who has expressed his disappointment. He says, What kind of a student is this? Why can't he respect the wishes of uh his his predecessor? Alo Cola, please tell us your name and where you're calling us from and give us your contributions.

SPEAKER_25 1:19:38

Good uh evening, uh good evening. Okay, you're talking to MK6. I'm in Job.

SPEAKER_35 1:19:46

MK6, make your contributions.

SPEAKER_25 1:19:50

Yeah, I sounded a bit harsh the last time when the post mortem was done. I'll be very calm today.

SPEAKER_35 1:19:57

Everyone was angry, everyone was angry, everyone was crying, everyone was shouting. We were all outraged at what had happened.

SPEAKER_25 1:20:07

So let me try by all means to be calm and maybe try to take us a little bit back so that maybe we can grasp something out of this. So, um, look, I was just talking to some um UPND supporters today because they would always want to refer this issue of ECL to the KK issue, and that is where they are standing. I think that is where even the court said, but here's the situation the ECL family never chose any place that they want to put to race our president in this area or that place. All they requested was for an individual who is HH not to be there. I think I would laugh and maybe think the courts did bad because the case that was presented was very different from the KK. I think I I don't know if it's me who misquoted the the whole issue, but from the onset, the the argument has been that HS shouldn't be near the casket or near the funeral, and that is the argument that has been there ever since. So I don't know why we can now start citing laws that have never even not even an inch similar to what is discussed. Fast forward, the post mortem was done before the postmortem was told the board has been is lost or has been stolen from the the two mountains generally, and the government came out in the open and said, you know, we have the party if you could pose this question to all of us listening after today's message, live broadcast actually from the attorney general saying that um they didn't have a physical custody. I can ask them does the ECO family have a physical custody of the body?

SPEAKER_35 1:22:24

Not at all.

SPEAKER_25 1:22:29

It's a no, it's the two mountain who has the physical custody. Now you ask them again who is that person? Is it you something?

SPEAKER_35 1:22:42

You make it from the embassy, exactly.

SPEAKER_25 1:22:46

In what capacity did she go and sign?

SPEAKER_35 1:22:50

He is a man.

SPEAKER_25 1:22:53

Okay, in what capacity did he go and sign at the whatever the clinical hospital they took the board to? In what capacity? If Mr. Kadesha is saying the government never had the the remains of our late president in his custody, then who is Yui standing in for?

SPEAKER_35 1:23:20

Yeah, Yui Maketo from the embassy.

SPEAKER_25 1:23:23

Are they now saying we don't have an embassy representing Zambia in Pretoria? Which you yourself was uh there. So I think let's have a serious conversation around this issue and let the government let not government think that we are dealing with fools. We are normal people and very patriotic. We don't want to start saying things that may incite people to do other things otherwise we are a Christian country and we pray, especially like the international the African uh evidence that it's talking. I know Professor very well. We've been we've been having some discussions on he normally comes with a lot of discussions on um Twitter, what is it called? So I guess oh the formal external for Ichilema, yes, it yeah, he has a lot of following on Twitter. So please, if we can have five of those coming out, I think the president of the Republic of Zambia should just give in.

SPEAKER_35 1:24:58

Thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_25 1:25:00

We put to rest our sixth Republican president because we have tried so much for so long.

SPEAKER_35 1:25:08

MK, thank you very much. Let me take some other calls. Yes, thank you. Please tell us your name and where you're calling us from and give us your contributions.

SPEAKER_22 1:25:22

Yes, it'll be embedded to have an amashoko na mashoko. No bay me, therefore we push a mway. As our you were once our representative as high commissioner in South Africa. It's easy to watch here. I don't know how many agrimoirs you could have read in. I'm just wondering. By our Zambia and laws in a night, it's a post more table. By our Zambia and laws, it's a quo cool, or moving you could more chariot to more table. That's why is it too be single Zambia? It's a bachelor post to more table. You make sure Pishika Akasuba. What does the South African law say? Maybe I might be mistaken. But the court cases, e court case, could you assume another one year up to five years? Can it live for that long? Now I sung that happened. You know, for Nashabirifi, ananda pama na wanduwa fire twenty-one years ago. You do a postmortem. I just learned uumulam wandua fuire. You hold you head of the priest bata. That was my husband's young brother. There was no post mortem which was conducted. That's why we took the body, but used the coach butter. We buried on Thursday. Because the family said there was no needs in the accident. It was up to the family. Hit been confirmed for mwachamba nava canada church inaba chile witness if it's staff waku embassy.

SPEAKER_35 1:28:25

Kumwefu mendo at Yui Marketo, who's being cited, was present at the collection of the body, was also recorded uh at the postmortem. So the Zambian Embassy was represented by a gentleman called Yui Maketo.

SPEAKER_22 1:28:44

No, but Zambian Embassy.

SPEAKER_35 1:28:46

M Kwa Secretary Politico.

SPEAKER_22 1:28:51

Okay, but political intelligence. Okwa Baku Embassy na no, but it was recorded. Okay. No, but if you na mix mote which ten educate, what does the South African ovo she kapantry sakamana?

SPEAKER_35 1:29:13

I I I think I think um let me answer you through the broadcast. You can watch okay. So I think um that question after you do a postmortem, you have to bury immediately, is not a legal question. I think it's a biological issue. When you open up the body, it is extremely difficult to preserve it. If it is intact, you know, but when you open it up, it becomes extremely difficult to preserve the body. The body degenerates quickly. So it's not a legal issue, in my view, it is a biological issue of what happens to the state of the body. Uh I noticed that the other line was off. Let me just try to quickly connect it so that our people can call, because that's an open line. Thank you, Mama Mumbai, who was um uh who was uh calling on that, and thank you for your uh for your for your views, mama. Um let me pick this call. Um yeah, let's just we're today. We are discussing. We were we had honorable president of Citizen First, Honorable Harikalaba, who helped with the discussion here. And he put it in context. In his capacity as former foreign affairs minister, and in his capacity as an aspiring presidential candidate, I think he gave us some very good insights. Let's let's keep on calling, keep on calling. Uh the other line, let me, I'm just activating it. Um notice it was off.

SPEAKER_29 1:31:20

Zambia is not a Christian nation. Zambia to a literature devil. We've sold our country to the devil. Zambia is not a Christian nation. Caught me wrong. Zambia is not a Christian nation. Because I'm Latinary South. No family.

SPEAKER_10 1:31:55

Why do you want to talk about uh the first observation or first contribution? I listened to one of the Mukalawa on the he was very accurate. I have liked that he is also fostering unity of war but this thing of edge CC for the last three, four years, you know, opposition unity, and now we are getting into the D zone, but they are not uniting, they're all talking about unity and being united, putting up a front to fight the regime in power. We are worried as a country, we are worried as voters that we need a flag bearer as quickly as possible, and not just promises, you know, because things that are happening in Zambia and what we are seeing, it's not making sense and not giving us a good light of where we are going. We need unity of papers and yeah, to to get rid of this guy now. The government of Zambia through the representative in South Africa. He cannot now come turn around and refuse that no, it was in the hands of other people. I know why he has changed this story because his credibility has been shifted. He is worried about the court cases that are bound to come because of their attitude and act over ECL's body. Nobody is happy about what they've done. So he cannot start now absorbing himself and saying no, it was not him. No. And we Zambians, what we have seen, the inconsistency, they are pushed to have this body. That is why now, even Zambians who were doubting that they wanted something from that body, they have now agreed. Because they've seen Pamina, Takwa Wafia, Takwa Fie, a body she over somebody who was the commander-in-chief of the armed forces and the president of Zambia being carried in that CTF type of a police van. No, no, no, no. There was no dignity, they stripped Edgarung in life, they stripped his dignity. They went and now followed him in death and stripped his dignity. And this to me, they've lost legitimacy to rule Zambia and they should go in August. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_35 1:34:36

Thank you very much. That is um, you can call the line is now open. I didn't realize that it was uh off. Uh, you can now call an open line, it's now on. Alo collar, please tell us your name and where you're calling us from.

SPEAKER_19 1:34:50

Uh, good evening, good evening. Yeah, this is Mama T.

SPEAKER_35 1:34:56

Mama T. Make your contributions.

SPEAKER_19 1:34:59

Thank you so much. Uh therefore assisting to a doctor explain bueno.

SPEAKER_35 1:35:08

Hey, Dr. Kasese Butter. Yeah, Dr. Kasese Mama Botter.

SPEAKER_24 1:35:13

Yes, yes. Uh the folk, because the twist idiashi. So number imagine. I've been calling ever uh from the day the body was uh we were told that the body was stolen up to today. So no by the friend the folk. If we're to be an African, we are Africans, eh? We have a culture, but traditions here. So apart from Baise Okuba, my former head of state, oh my fumini. Hello?

SPEAKER_35 1:36:14

I can hear you. Continue.

SPEAKER_24 1:36:17

Okay. Apart from Baise Wokuba, former head of state, before he became a president, he was someone's father, he was someone's husband, he was someone's brother, he was someone's son, he was someone's nephew. Tatu Shive, I hear, pa mobidi waba tata. Because the Balungu, Wadi, a father of the nation. About the pulo movidi, bala funyefia kufuala. Aproponse apu, protokoyakana. Kuri and it's fullo, it's over snack with the batata. So number e government, as much as they want to twist this issue, Ukulando Kweba Ti, Padivakaunda Chad if I uh my other brothers say to say they were these are two different issues. That's the only debate that we had. But the debate that we had with the barrio of Isel was for Hakainde not to attend, not reside, and the reasons are very are very clear. Now 13, not even a single day. We saw what Akainde did in Mongu, he intercepted the presidential matake via lungu and the way he's twisting this issue. He says that ECO is treated by presentation. What will happen? Because right now we have a lot of people who are in prison. Former cases, I have very clear win, we know. If you're fiancé not wish, the obsession it has gone beyond beyond the measure.

SPEAKER_35 1:39:32

Thank you, ma'am.

SPEAKER_24 1:39:36

Because of the obsession that he has, he has failed to perform, he has failed to fulfill his promises, he has failed to bring minimi at 50 quarter because of the obsession that he has with is following him, this is unquote for the statement, he will be the head of state. So if you want to come to our because the president of this nation, he should be explaining to us and the people because we are doing it in the interest of the Zambians. So as Zambians, we want to understand, we want to know why why Tabatu to South Africa sends to be table, to repule to money. If you have to equip a info five, you are should say footy, because he was giving in the drugs. Let's fight for this country. This country belongs to all of us. You see our deserved respect. Thank you, Raman.

SPEAKER_35 1:42:32

Thank you very much. The lines are now open. You can call on the open lines. Allo colour, please tell us your name and where you're calling us from and make your contribution. My dear sister, make your contributions. Thank you. Thank you, my dear sister. I have two calls waiting. Let me take this first one.

SPEAKER_15 1:47:14

Good evening, Ambassador Mamba. Good evening. Calling you from Lusaka.

SPEAKER_35 1:47:20

Lungwali, make your contributions.

SPEAKER_15 1:47:24

Yeah, um, uh three issues, three items that I would want to put a word this evening.

SPEAKER_35 1:47:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_15 1:47:31

The first item is over the funeral of our late president, Dr. Edika Chagwarung. The desperation of this government to access that body has shown to every Zambian that truly it is not just a mere coincidence that these things are happening. Ambassador Mamba, this government is giving us a picture that we never wanted to see in our lives. I don't know at I don't know what they are that what were what they were up to because I think they reached what they wanted. Now you can even see they are relaxed, they can even withdraw the case, they can now take the trips that they they never wanted to take. In short, a lot have been said about that one. The main issue that I want to comment this evening, Ambassador Mamba, is the issue of the uh opposition unity. I remember so well when Davis Muida was telling the PF to say, you guys less campaign. Because if we are going to lose power, we are going to end up in jail. I think most of you and most of the people in Zambia thought those were mayorweeds. Dr. Kamwiri and all those that are in prison, I think they are able to remember to say this. I think someone had spoken about this. My appeal this evening to the opposition is that if they don't unite, there will be no freedom to talk about. We don't know if 2031 elections how it will be if the UPN day government power this August. Therefore, this try and error thing that the opposition are doing and wanted maybe to participate for the sake of participating, as Harkalaba had said, they might not be, they might not have the opportunity to be on the ballot in 2031. Because look, this government is doing all what it can that is to remove the freedom that. Our forefathers fought so much for Mother Zambia as we are talking about a lot of bills, they are focused on changing the law. What does that tell the Zambians?

SPEAKER_35 1:50:13

My brother, I have to cut you. I've got almost now four people waiting. Let me, I think we've heard you. Let me just um okay. Let me conclude the ambassador. Quickly conclude, there are four people waiting in queue already.

SPEAKER_15 1:50:27

Thank you so much. What I would want to say is that, like President Harikalabas said, my appeal to the opposition is let's unite, let's unite so that we can see this aluri and the government that is very badhearted. Because we are going to start fighting for independence that Kaunda fought for. Thank you so much. Good evening.

SPEAKER_35 1:50:58

Sir, welcome your grace. Welcome to today's broadcast.

SPEAKER_36 1:51:04

Thank you very much, honorable, for the opportunity to once again uh uh you know speak to the nation through your broadcast.

SPEAKER_35 1:51:13

I have hosted you, Bishop. I have hosted you, Bishop, first of all, because you are passionate about widows and orphans. Your entire ministry has been based, you know, on helping orphans and and widows. And you came here, you've cried for um Mama Esther Loma. Now, these developments where the body of the late president was literally stolen, the second date was subjected to an illegal postmorteman mutilation. What is your reaction? What have been your views?

SPEAKER_36 1:51:47

My reaction and my views are just consistent with what people have spoken. Passionately people have spoken on this subject. It is ticklish. Now, all I can say is that wisdom is only wisdom to the wise, to the unwise, wisdom is not wisdom at all. And the reason why I'm saying this is it is only wise people who can listen to what people are saying, otherwise, this subject is very, very painful, as everybody else has observed. My advice to everybody is that be careful in whose hands you place power. This is a very important statement, and let's take hold of it. Be careful in whose hands you place power. Even wherever we are going, even in future, this wisdom must be observed. I got it from one of the bishops who spoke to us. He said, Young man, be careful in whose hands you place power. Because what is happening is revealing what people we are dealing with. You can't pretend that we don't know ukupama kuntum, ukupama. It is like we have a dead conscious. Zambians have lost their dignity, their respect within a very short space of time. I cannot work or walk with my head, you know, lifted up because of what has been going on. Now, somebody was asking whether the president can say something about this. Maybe he also didn't know what is going on, you know, just like the way the issue of recruitment he didn't know. Maybe that's the case. I don't know. You know, so we need to hold our leaders accountable. According to Genesis chapter 6, verse 5, it says, and God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of their heart was evil continually. You know, uh, if we have that kind of mindset that is evil continually, even the things we do will not be good. We'll just be making mistakes. Make a tree good and its fruit will be good. Make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad. For the tree is recognized by its fruits. So be careful in whose hands you place power. I'm not going to lament. I've spoken what the Bible says in the time past, I've pleaded for the widow, and everybody has done that. How can we as a people act as if we have no conscience? That's where the church must come in. Many leaders are practicing lies, deception, oppression, and their followers. Uh they have fish motives, including the leaders. So let's answer something from the happenings today. You can only fool one person in the whole world, and that is yourself, nobody else. I can fool nobody but myself. So that's what I can say about this. Is too painful. You can't allow such kind of happenings. Be careful in whose hands you place power.

SPEAKER_35 1:55:38

Thank you, your grace. Indeed, your grace, Bishop Dr. Paul Whope. He says, Be careful in whose hands you place power. Thank you, Bishop, for those powerful words. Hello, Cola. Please tell us your name and where you're calling us from.

SPEAKER_13 2:00:20

We take an advantage on two problems. Problems and more opposition. So I can say PF Napenda. I was putting a make zuru.

SPEAKER_35 2:00:51

Thank you, Baby. Natasha May. Bamkonge. Bamkongava led to my vengeance. Thank you. Hello, Cola. Please tell us your name and where you are calling us from and give us your contribution.

SPEAKER_21 2:01:08

This is nameless.

SPEAKER_35 2:01:10

My nameless, make your contribution.

SPEAKER_21 2:01:13

Thank you so much, uh Ambassador. Yeah. Anyway, Ambassador, uh, all I should say is uh all is said and all is heard, all is brought to our attention, our eyes can see through, and at this point of time, we have even borrowed the hoofs ears to grasp everything. I'm actually where I'm going to do in Galanda. I'm so pleased, even though I just caught you in the middle, just when Vakalama was about to go. You know, you featured Vakalama, the aspiring president, yeah, who has given us the insight, you know, on the matter as it stands. He has also assured the country that unity is about to prevail. Yeah, in fact, this is I think this is what we should focus on. This is our biggest concern. Yeah, you know, we are left with nothing but unity. I just want to make an appeal to all the political leaders who are behind this scene to actually or maybe tightly keep their words and demonstrate to the nation. Another important thing, Ms. Ambassador, raising awareness to people in rural districts is vital. You know, I don't live in Zambia, but I've been trying to get contact from most of the people, and people who are remote, most of them are so behind in knowing what's happening. You know, they should get educated in the protection of a vote. You know, it's so sad that there is so much that has happened during the election period. And one thing you have to keep in mind, all of you, is that there is a big distraction. This is another distraction. Whether we like it or not, it's another distraction. Then lastly, I have heard from most of the people calling upon the churches, calling upon the chiefs, saying that chiefs are quiet, churches are quiet. You know, when there is a lion that is coming towards you, you don't kill the lion by its head. You have to go behind. You have to have a strategy. Above and two, they are not quiet, they know exactly. They can't be like us when we hear something, quickly we start putting things on social media, what and what they know how they work. We need to give them time. They have heard, people have been talking, they know what they are doing. We need to give them time, they are not quite. You know, when you are dealing with the devil, you need to be very, very careful.

SPEAKER_35 2:04:42

Thank you, ma'am. Thank you. Thank you so much. Okay, I've got two more calls waiting. Let me start with this one. Anna Cola, please tell us your name and where you're calling us from.

SPEAKER_08 2:04:53

Uh, thank you. This is Uncle Jay. Uh, mine is short and quick.

SPEAKER_35 2:04:58

Yes, Uncle Jay. Make your contributions.

SPEAKER_08 2:05:00

Yeah. Uh uh first uh first of all, I just want to thank uh President Harikava. Uh, I think he was sincere in his message, and you can see the genuineness coming from him, and uh we pray that uh that actually become a reality. Um, secondly, on the issue of um uh Kabesha's uh statement today, I think uh we Zambians are not foolish.

unknown 2:05:27

You know, you can't hit us and tell us we have not hit you.

SPEAKER_08 2:05:32

We've been hit and we've seen, we know what we saw, we know what we had. So there is no narrative that can change that fact.

unknown 2:05:40

What happened is that they didn't expect this backlash.

SPEAKER_08 2:05:44

So this is just mission aborted. They did what they wanted to do, uh, the next step was just going to say no, HH will not be part of um, you know, the funeral any longer. But when they they've they saw the kind of backlash they've received, this is why they were fidgeting what to tell the nation. Uh, this is how they cooked up this lie and uh brought it to the floor. But we are not buying it, we are Zambians. And um, Zambians, we we have the ball in our hands. We have the ball in our hands. Let us decide for our future. Do we want to continue with this kind of behavior of the government that will not listen to the people that will are going to, you know, to to really to trample the widow in this manner or perform rituals against the norms and the customs of our traditions in the country?

unknown 2:06:42

The answer is no. Let us decide for our future and the future of our children. We cannot continue in this dark path.

SPEAKER_08 2:06:52

We need to create a better future for our people uh come going forward.

unknown 2:06:59

Not this government come August 13th, let us decide.

SPEAKER_08 2:07:03

These are done, they have dug their war, just like Mama Idif Nawapi declared these walls that you are digging, you shall fall in them yourself. This man has dug his own hole and he has fallen in it. This was the end, it was a nail in the coffin. He thought Ediger was done with him, but Ediger just responded and has done this for Zambia. I thank you.

SPEAKER_35 2:07:32

Hello, Cola. I noticed Horror Bambi period is back. Hello, man.

SPEAKER_22 2:07:36

Yes, Rashimo Amba and Kwaisach Pushio Kulanda. Two things. The first thing, me I'm so shocked that our learned Antonio General Bamriro Kabeshia, for him to claim that what the president is doing is constitution, doesn't he know that there is no law in our constitution that bounds the president's family to bury them at embassy park? Doesn't he know that? Me, I know because I served twice as a lawmaker, one elected under the leadership of Amusa Wanamwambua, second time nominated under the capable leadership of Patrick Matibini, not in parliament. No, doesn't you know that washesko? Is there any law which describes in Zambia how a president and where they should be buried? Or it's just for convenience, there's no binding law. And secondly, let me take this opportunity to thank President Hari Kalabra. You know that is the first president of the opposition who has come out in the open to tell us the people of Zambia that is willing to follow and to support whoever is going to stand as a president apart from himself, who can make Zambia change this government? Bakalaba em timoyo because you are not ready to escort anybody to state house. For you to have said that, and you let me remind you, mwle kuswa mwamba at walan tide she or baleanda naba makebizulu at his ready lole tule fukuri bosition. Narona wekeshako. I mwamwebe mine mle mwuna chimukawi inameka, kule muna siachina imwena ba mishita. It'so fondera dasia chindi. And it truly take time until tu pange chakusa boseba opposition, eron waka edi pina hundred thousand. And as I conclude, nayova estalungo then asangia badini emwa. They can't, most of them people are so poor, they can't even afford that with what is happening, xenophobia. Me, that's what I call it South Africa. People are even scared to South Africa. You could have seen a lot, those who can afford even bypass, come and be with you at this very trying moment. But who kubo kukuakwale samayo? Nowfuakwali South Africa Mwadeba, who kubo kukuakwale satakwai pipa? Kutdy, we are praying for you, your children, bassista, babessa, we are praying for you. Alale so kwa at the end of the day. You are history makers, your names will be mentioned, the mistreatment you have gotten, the shame people think they have brought on you will be glorious one day, you'll be heroes. Thank you, Mashimwan.

SPEAKER_35 2:11:52

Thank you very much. I've got so many people waiting. Let's be quick. Hello, Cola. Please tell us your name and where you're calling us from.

SPEAKER_18 2:12:03

Good.

SPEAKER_35 2:12:06

Yes, good evening. Who's calling and where are you calling us from?

SPEAKER_17 2:12:10

Can I choose to remain anonymous?

SPEAKER_35 2:12:13

Anonymous, continue with your contribution.

SPEAKER_17 2:12:18

My contribution is simple.

SPEAKER_18 2:12:20

Uh with what has happened in the past few days. I think what I can explain is that I'm enraged. I'm so disappointed. I'm ashamed. Now this matter for me is not a political matter. We think our values are people. What really are the motivations for the things that are going on? So my appeal is to the opposite I don't like what we have. But in policy that we should have leaders that respect and number one. We need all of us to take part and record our country. Because despite we are onity, I have to make place we want to have the issue.

SPEAKER_35 2:13:43

Thank you.

unknown 2:13:50

Ambassador Mukambana Anonymous from Zambia.

SPEAKER_35 2:13:53

Anonymous, make your contributions.

SPEAKER_06 2:14:56

So I can dech the Mao Muganifanguarana. So Tuna Kumuzivisa Kukamba indechide mapanakuta time. Inka niriapanyo opposition, familiwa kambawa karawa, atwa opposition wonce Bakuizani, ye business ameting a kambe. Kulibamine Muza kamba indechemangachite. Aka indechide manimu aminari be matu ali benzoni. Watate wasa displaced, se watate wamene umwa mungachete kere, banawina pa wanaposa, kuibamene machita vozivacheva upu aveck. So game wabene apa wiz on opposition. Kuwachosavatate wasati paya voz is alfa. Sivatateva buino one. Bassata, young can't call him akoziana.

SPEAKER_35 2:15:49

Thank you very much. Allo cola, please tell us your name and where you're calling us from and give us your contributions.

SPEAKER_09 2:16:00

My name is Montumususo. I'm calling you from Nussala, Zambia.

SPEAKER_35 2:16:04

Montumususo, make your contributions.

SPEAKER_09 2:16:08

Thank you very much. Hey, it's tragic indeed. Zambia is only ground zero today. It's tragic. It's tragic. We want to thank Professor David Masingia. Masingia for what he has said. I follow him a role through Twitter. He has nailed it. President has brought colors of shame and the sickness in this country. Now he's laughing at this country. I don't even know how it's going to go anywhere. If you said I know. How do you perform a postmort time without the knowledge of the family? You are not the next of king, President. President H political power is temporary. It's just for ends. It's not that all of us now you start treating us like your keto. We are not your keto, President. So you have seen now. After attempting five times to assume movies, this is how you can money perform. I was telling the people before this man became president. I was telling the people radio all over on TV. I told the people. And the people used to say, no, Musoso. Musoso just hits it. Have you seen where we are now? This man has brought a colossal peace in this country. This will be a generational case. It's like in the case of Patricia Mumba was you have seen that Congo has ever been the same now. After throwing Patriz Romumba in the asset. This is now what this man has been. This is after seven years of attempting, this is how he comes and performs. After doing the post mortem and getting maybe whatever he wanted to get, this is when Motiva Mandy would know where we are ready to do whatever I want to do. Ladies and gentlemen, countrymen and women, even the UPND members themselves, I'm appealing to their conscience. The UPND members themselves, I'm appealing to their conscience. And if there's only one major aspect over these orchestrating elections, it is the same thing. Opposition leaders, please. We are bidding you. There's no imaginable kind of pain you can imagine on a person and what that woman has gone through. So we are bidding opposition leaders to show that they line behind that woman. And let us, this issue is for players. This issue is for players. You were told when Catholic bishop said, said, when the process is given, they will say that it's better to leave election to allow this person to come in. Did you hear that? Didn't you hear all of you what Bishop Jumba said to come? All the public hand. Did you hear? And you have been today, everything that you perfect is coming through. Everything you Ambassador Mono Mamba said about this man is coming through. For me, I thought that you come and be different. And put the people to shame. Even me who condemned him vehemently everywhere. Ambassador Mono Mwamba, I didn't intend to talk today. I just wanted to listen to the views across. So after listening to all the views, the views, the comments everywhere, I thought are typically.

SPEAKER_35 2:20:33

Thank you very much. Thank you. Now a lot of people, even me, I didn't intend to have this broadcast, but the lies of Honorable Kabesha forced me to quickly come to the broadcast. Allo caller, please tell us your name and where you're calling us from. Mr. Nyendwa, make your contributions.

SPEAKER_32 2:20:54

Thank you so much. But before I make my con my contribution, let me mention that I'm UPND.

unknown 2:21:00

Okay, my brother. I have two issues.

SPEAKER_11 2:21:03

First of all, uh, I think uh McKe is being unfair to the family because he has his interest, and the best that could be done is for him to stop representing the family so that he can spearhead his agenda of being the president away from uh this issue of Edigarung, you know, because what we are seeing is him trying to use Edgar Lung body for a campaign as a campaign message. So let him stop that. And then for those that are saying, no, H want to use the body for rituals. The question that I have for them, uh, my father used to use a lot of traditional uh medicines.

SPEAKER_35 2:21:43

Your father used to use traditional medicines.

SPEAKER_11 2:21:46

My father used to use a lot of traditional medicines.

SPEAKER_35 2:21:49

Are you the one that called yesterday, my brother? The one who the one who said uh if the question the question is is there anything that you can get from a loser?

SPEAKER_11 2:21:59

Is a question.

SPEAKER_35 2:22:00

Are you the one that caught? I think you are the one that caught yesterday.

SPEAKER_11 2:22:08

And yet you have to say H is using him for for literals. What kind of literos would DH you know uh get from Ed Galungu? Who has just been a loser from the beginning?

SPEAKER_35 2:22:18

Now tell us something just a minute, just a minute. My brother, you said you are from UPND. I remember yesterday you called the spare on the broadcast when you said if it's um the body is just one hour from South Africa and Osaka and you said president the body. That's a minute. Today you are saying your father was uh using a lot of traditional medicine, and you are saying you can't take short of saying you can't get visible from a loser. Is that what you are saying? Especially that your father was using traditional medicine. Explain that's what I'm telling you.

SPEAKER_11 2:23:12

I'm telling you, anyone, it's a common sense thing, it's a common knowledge. There's even if you are going to use animals, right, to get powers from animals, you're going to use a strong animal. You know, that's common sense. Edgar Lungo, if HH was to use uh uh med uh Vizimba, he would have used Lupia Ban, who performed better than Edgar Lungu, no, he would have used Sate, who performed better than Edgalungu. But what should what is he going to do with Edgar Lungu really? You know, so that is the kind of thinking with Wapif. They think like HH wants to do anything, and for anything, for anything, why should you uh you know deny HH the opportunity to see uh uh the former president? Why why are you doing that? You know, it's a question that why why Edigalung saw the uh the body of Lupia Banda, he saw the body of KK, you know, he saw these guys, but why are you trying so hard? You know, you're trying so hard to prevent this guy from seeing uh the body of uh Edigalung. It is just uh, you know, the issue of the hatred that you guys have against HH. But you know what? H is a big guy. Like I said yesterday, you are going to cry and cry and cry. And inasmuch as you think like God will answer you, even God will answer HH. You think like this God only hears your prayers? He hears all of us, all of us you can pray to him and you hear our prayer. Let the family let go of Edgarumu. Let us burn Edgar Rumu. For me, I can tell you for free. And do you know what I will tell you today? Me, I was sponsored by Edgar Rumu. Me, I was sponsored by Edgar Lumu. I went to study under the scholarship of Edgarumu. All of us we wanted to see his body, and this family would not behave as if it is the only family that want to see that want to see the body. All of us want to see the body, and then they get to a point of saying we're going to punish South Africa. You think that Edgar Lungu only belongs to this family? No, it belongs to all of us, so they are going to lose. The one they lost uh in uh the high court, even if they want, they can appeal to the highest court, like I said yesterday, they are going to lose and lose and lose and lose. And Ed Galung is not even happy with the family. This family, if Edgar Lung was to come back, would say, You have made me suffer, you would you have made me suffer, and I don't want you closer to my uh body.

SPEAKER_35 2:25:31

That's a good that's what Edgar Long. The last question before you go, because it's the last question, just a minute, my brother. Before you go, you are making a lot of confessions here. Um uh your father was using a lot of uh traditional medicines. Do you do you also do you also use an African? Yes, just wait, just wait.

SPEAKER_13 2:25:52

It appears if it's something bad, you know.

SPEAKER_35 2:25:54

No, yeah, I I can see you already defending it.

SPEAKER_11 2:26:00

Because I'm an African, I'll not use any traditional medicine. Is that what you no?

SPEAKER_35 2:26:04

I want to ask, you've confessed that your father was using a lot of traditional medicines. You now, as a son, do you still use traditional medicines?

SPEAKER_11 2:26:13

I don't use traditional medicine.

SPEAKER_35 2:26:15

I don't use traditional medicines. Thank you very much, my brother. Thank you. Thank you for calling.

SPEAKER_11 2:26:18

You guys continue speculating. H is a big guy, and he has been a big guy before the death of Ediganw. So the death of Edigan will not change anything. You know, he's going to win the election, and we are going to give him a vote again and again and again. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_35 2:26:38

Thank you very much. But that's the purpose of this uh uh broadcast is that it's open anyone can call, including our brothers, the UPND.

SPEAKER_16 2:26:54

Good evening, Ambassador. Good evening. Um, yeah, so chaku tango show to ambchange that china told that chip. Okay, this in English we call it a taboo. Point Yakuambay, Amalekiwa Bakabeshawatari President. Kambo Shova Totchita, Batocha decamped president. There's no way Moontu omwe he comes and says the court has transferred the body to the government. And then today he comes out and say we've never seen how is that even possible? We know how desperate they've been with this court. So if he can come today and say we didn't even see, does it mean we are children? This man, it's unfortunate that after being in opposition for 12 years, I mean for 20 years, they're just letting go of power like he. They never even they never even suffered to get it. It's a shame. I mean, this is a long guy to to be advising presidents. I don't know if they are working together, but he's embarrassing us lenders, this man. We are very ashamed of that man. Okay, we are very ashamed that man, even watching a lecture to the former to the to the president, the former lecture to the president coming out the way he came out. How far is he going to be imbalance this man with his obsession for the body of Isia? My appeal to the country is that uh this man has showed us who he is. Those who still have uh, I don't know if I can say it hope in him, but I think he has showed us everything that he can do. And that Zambia's just come together, we've been imbalanced, and I think it's enough. We need to reach a point where we need to agree to say certain things is not normal, it's a taboo. I never used to believe so much in this witchcraft thing, but I think with what is going on, Ambassador. I can I can only believe. So, my conclusion is that uh about to say when I wakesha, I'm like introspect, thank you, Ambassador.

SPEAKER_35 2:29:38

Thank you very much, my brother, and thank you for that direct message to Honorable Um Murilo Kabesha, the attorney general, and I hope that he's listening and he can listen to that advice. Tell us your name and where you're calling us from. Uh, this is uh nameless uh ambassador. Nameless, make your contributions.

SPEAKER_34 2:30:19

How far does uh the law the body go for it to be kept? Elo, Kuria won't chung for the land that you are kuikataikata, inaba mwamba na li kwete ku kupanda ko wonga kunumoku. So na li shiva sana if you fiwumba omuntuga shakwati nafwa elo nafiyava kwato kuimbechi indi. So fiyafi neva pangire postmo tempalia, iashriva poka viriu, umuntu lyo file, bakwatokumkakao. So gasakovati kuli ama privati uh uh mediko piasoneo kumalia sha psanapsana, kuavuk senda kuefintu fimo, ama body party. So, ngaba ngababula uyomuvili ilingi takuwano kwish velo uh ilingili inekwali ba nemi ti wa sansakumuntu kuria, bati ilingili nga chakuba nabembe chirindi. Pala senda kotuma body patumo, palu pwali mbi pali kovati kwa kwa ma ishumwagovati nbi fili ndivembi le pabili shani elokwave fio so inefidiava yupi njibati le tachue me. Elo automat kalife. Bali sendakona fimo. Idai nemanda by mba yanga chagovati balioko eka vela head kalungu kuyangatabakavemo andi shivali vika mufida elo um kwalibanok sendaku shimbafimonumba patete ndumbole.

SPEAKER_35 2:31:55

My brother was send the my brother my brother yeah, my brother associated na na power na influence. My brother, listen, my brother listen.

SPEAKER_34 2:32:06

But due to the fact that the government value pushing a sana to see the body and the uh to an extent they do post modem automatically, they have done something evil. You in what no doubt because the uh I've worked nef yeah, but uh I'm not going to go into detail. But but for now, if mom is causing such kind of thing, but but Naijo Mbai nef so much. So, due to the fact that our government's motem I know exactly nefurate ticker, then yet oh ninga period.

SPEAKER_35 2:32:46

But well, I wanted a lot of questions from him, especially that he says he formerly practiced you know witchcraft, although he has abandoned it. But he's saying most of the things that have happened is witchcraft based. I wanted to ask him, I wish he can call back. Hello, caller. Please tell us your name and where you're calling us from. My dear sister, I am to call yes.

SPEAKER_23 2:33:17

How are you?

SPEAKER_35 2:33:18

Very well.

SPEAKER_23 2:33:20

Yes, I just want to contribute on Vacavesha. I'm very much disappointed with Vakavesha because Vakavesha is the one who told the whole world that they have the body for ECL. So I'm very disappointed to hear him telling the nation that they don't have the body. So it's a question mark now to say that even Vakavesha, the one who was showing the nation like he means well, he's going to tell the truth to the people of Zambia. But now he wants now to start again fooling the nation by saying we don't have the body. It was him who told the nation that we have the body. So, why should we change to say they don't have a body? So just let these people they should just bring the body. Whenever they took it, just tell them to bring the body. Please, people of Zambia, these people they don't mean well for sure. And for those who come in or those by UPND, continue allowing them honorable. And when they start speaking what they know, don't even try to argue with them. Let them believe in what they believe. And us also believe in what we believe.

SPEAKER_35 2:34:32

As we believe in just in every oh my dear brother, uh our line is uh is cutting our dear sister from Livingstone. Hello, Cora, please tell us your name and where you are calling us from.

SPEAKER_07 2:34:55

Uh good evening, Ambassador. Good evening. Sorry, Anonymous.

SPEAKER_35 2:35:01

Anonymous, make your contributions.

SPEAKER_07 2:35:05

Okay, uh, thank you very much, Ambassador. Ambassador Nani Tutobi Mittema. You know, I think this is Ambia. I think I'm gonna call the umbuller, community, uruza, according to the industry, okay, a banner. I think we're doing the pata local banda. I think we move up for twenty minutes to be a rope. So it's a room. You can tell if you uh things are bad in the nation. We need to raise as a nation and make sure that communication is all that we just avoid them. Simple as that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_35 2:37:53

Thank you, Cola. Hello, Cola. Please tell us your name and where you're calling us from. If you need calamba yeah, never never you know this area we are discussing. A lot of people we we have no idea what it is, and it's it's not making sense that uh someone can be obsessed with the body of a dead man, that they want rituals. A lot of people are not understanding. Of course, many Africans know about this. You have said you have since left it, but you were in the practice. So tell us in your view from your previous practice, we understand you've surrendered your life to Christ. Udwanawa kwale sabatu are fish. What do you think is happening over the body of the late president?

SPEAKER_34 2:39:08

So in Kwaeba Mwambeko na fuma, kufami kumiansu. Na feelen ishi vata in Anga ineba mwamba.

unknown 2:39:17

Mong fine.

SPEAKER_34 2:39:18

Mkwai So na kulile munganda be mone fintu ninsoka shileen da quadivinsoka mwai kata filafi nero mwako me mitimu kwai, so na inena kulanin sh nin shemitefomba. So, na de wombelapuwa bandu wakwebati you fe in dishani, so na sh be me tefishomba. So, Paliashi, if you lingabata fiokulanda via kwewati filafi neva government uriomovili, balifua na uchtafa uh find out government whe down. The ken family she kepantalanda everything. Number men uh pampami naudia um Chirangiro shakwati valeti ka lunguwa di tumki o kuimba di dangerinti family tailabanga decision atwala shik roku. So chidinga bayumba chilifana urupa naimakurupa kuya, uriomuntu kutu mamutra paudia, urioma imbe chlindi. So you fonda shakuba tibatu wumble to if a touch problem spirituality fi the government post mortem. So, in a post mortem mainly ninja ama patia moyamo. Nava sendako meni ama patia for the mafe fo. Em kwai. So muda muchilindi kwalifi twit and salando lodam. So muda muchilindi nabasendakuama patia muyamo. Malavi kanumba kwali miti shaku sanjamo. Elo muabika muda mutilindi muko la muria. Emu muwabi kemiti muria. Elo, uyomu mutu in bile chilindi chiria. In this case govament kolaba mwanda in foli kuye domuntua pale em kwaikula asamba mudamuilina asamba koniem tishimo provide du yomuntu ali no kuingila mukusendako ifintu fimufi abala uh nalalanda kofi mishishi elfia shala kiti dondu lamkui kula mwa sendaku mishishi ako movea koshimo, nafimu filun dofiamueli elomu damwili mutilin. If of young the wali send the kofimonishi muko landa government nachda with draw. Naba mi stake ota withdraw. Nishimwanish batawe automatically neva sendako ifin to fimunia shina. Or let's speech baby shabaj bella na chishba dai she na di poakali. So a government valu the few moes of mo fimalifo and shaves deal a kafi moving substance. So muntung president filafini for mulla uh muindalam. Panda wamakosi uh uh in waku my of state. There is no way for mushava quiet. Mukichimu shandi muzy there is no way we call a zip. Munto napua but you na na pwa butinfu mu na she kalazi. So she a fum shali sheri ashul yenda. So she e uh uh me for munamashi pana youtupea in the advice qualibu senda patawe to le money for mushani to the tandalina band money fui ma shali, badma panda put manifia kuumba muda mina sali kozi, butam andava show family in like anita bordinamusha. So, in the felling bash tafe foot advice kudibamu. Fiave post more tumpaled. Ba family um bakashi kafe kubalefu inakosi ba boti naika sana na in uhakwata problem uhzi imbamu kwa i babi kafe machu bobala simi tero me the masura of your movidi uh mw inashopa kanu inashopa we can washik kafe within the period of three weeks ye na kuwa shikosu movidi ni shwambuko la no. So, um a problem mudida shebu na ba family barriku tama wishy yambo, kua chitafi respect. No, no number three the fourteen level so movidiri. Epa mele problem ukushika y no chafi advise ma fwany away weakewa family name. Panama difference because the umoviri wala mamuka ishu moon pitamuchi indi kesan. But send upimo, na fimofimu fefi ako mati fiaku em kwainaba to sendako i na idea na mutitesa tramiki na munishani nama sendamonefwa namlifu ako ecausei postmoto. Namas send up family member you won't say, Kulifa police washani fia move to don't feel save you. So, could if you move send if you shimba m qua if you're co. If you feel shiva, I'm quite.

SPEAKER_35 2:45:06

Thank you very much, my brother. So, but what was your turning point to Christ?

SPEAKER_34 2:45:12

Oh, I am quite so fidgeting to take over Kuriba Data. So now you should have your fibomba. Elon and we feel a government government uh postmortem. Ida kwali no kuba chitalao. Ida inne febba tina la uta mm postmortum movili. Eh now send the find to feel na kuri wow inom kashana uria na checkingava let che kuro movini nangu shani bala kwatu ku ya mwindalam. Kabinavena medricali edifet through mauspito fairs omuntu nafo uhama strip that's why kuvela umuntu map familiya fui a babumuria u kosene pantumuntu balam kataola so yerama body wa kata u muntu fila bale pulengoko em kwa funye wa che kingamapoto bani, eloba ishima numba problemu fiafu. So numba kuriuk sendako if shimba kumuntu badia mantuba bumba muda ku landa naven elumavika pwendalama. Em kwachekula ku mutu male foya so fi shimba senda meni, bamu kwanokiamasanamba was. Kapanomuturin din doshi the satanity bamomendi um for political pomas qualibuku move you so definite manaka in the masen bakuf mum kwai. Elopa mwinda mwina, marikena matrip, sem definite kamaganza matrikuye mari to shapanga dana mucharisa. So, if yo m selfio na machita fienefio, where the mutation if you nefwali kani na machita bati uh advice ninga pena balu poine asumuntu a bomba puna fi. Genero shafekumuba lungu, zo movi nich mana nefio byes we kusan sa womu kabi requad nepio. If if you have send their fingo, if you are his wokuba, u muntu mgana kwa ta kuna wantuwa de mutunka taway, and me to the foa mukasende kwinefi uh quite of you up send their fingeli. So, naira post mortemga mamun had very secretive. So, due to that we don't have send the send the send if you need show any.

SPEAKER_35 2:47:46

Yeah, okay. No, my brother, thank you very much. Thank you for the insight. But my last question is um, how did you turn to Christ? Because Macheva T Number Pidibuka Muriwena Christ Mari Fideka.

SPEAKER_34 2:48:00

So in the number engine, she gave to nice telephone here. So if you define too after what that mbokombana fire mquai. Nice. So for two am I issue a pale shield. So in the name of the government. But due to the fact that the Mari Chit Takadi accession movili, il y a Shinari. Still post modem provided Navajita access movili ilava. Again, the quad woman to watch a body view take it. Provided nano the sharp sandity. And now some demiti and a wire shapali border view. That's why Mukamuna inducimos how if we body view the issue, party nunish paper she will garnish and quite and quite period up here.

SPEAKER_35 2:49:29

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Well, you know, this is the MV. You you never know who's on the other side of the divide. You just don't know who we will call. And sometimes you have profound calls like that. Whether you are educated or not, you just get another side of education from the other side. This was an emergence broadcast. We've been at it, you know, uh, for the last three and a half hours. Away at Nech Pela Nkula Nacho Chila to share even the diesel engines rests. Our last uh all those calling, I think. After these two calls, a lot of people now want to contribute. Let's look at the time and just allow me also to recharge to rest so that maybe we can have another broadcast tomorrow. But if I go on, then it wears me so much. So thank you for for for joining this broadcast and thank you for what uh uh uh for all the callers. This is your show. I know it's difficult to make these calls in Zambia, and this platform, therefore, comes also that you can go and freely express yourselves. All we demand is that you should be respectful, we should we respect other opinions. That's why even our brother from the UPND can come here and insult us, but we'll give him a platform to say what he wishes to say. So thank you very much. We might have another broadcast tomorrow. God bless you. I'll leave you with the videos that we intended to play today, including that of Kavisha, who was backpedaled.

SPEAKER_31 2:51:08

A high court ruling has temporarily halted the repatriation of former Zambian president Edgar Lungu's remains, escalating a dispute that has persisted for nearly 10 months. The court in Pretoria, acting on an urgent application by the family, has ordered the Zambian government to release the remains to a funeral home of the family's choice with the order in effect until May 21. To talk more about this, we're now joined by Ambassador Immanuel Mwamba, who is the official spokesperson for the Patriotic Front, the former ruling party of uh Zambia. Ambassador, good evening. Thank you so much for your time. Really do appreciate it. What is the reaction of uh the uh Patriotic Front's reaction to what has been uh playing out between the Lungo family as well as the government of Zambia around the remains uh and the body of uh President Lungo? And I asked this, given just how unfortunate and perhaps messy the situation has now become.

SPEAKER_35 2:52:07

We are in total shock, the entire country is in total shock of the events that have occurred the last two days. Um we learned of an activity by the Zambian government that were attempting to illegally retrieve the body of the remains of Zambia's sixth president, Dr. Edgar Chagualombo, from the mortuary, from uh the mob that has been holding in the funeral parlour at two mountains. And our lawyers frantically tried to stop uh the Zambian officials accompanied by South African police from taking that body. That body was taken uh in the evenings of uh Wednesday, and the family lawyers rushed to the Gauteng Pretorial Court and obtained an interdict to stop the government from uh uh repatriating that body and to immediately surrender the body as it was taken illegally from uh the funeral parlour. And yesterday on Thursday, the families and the lawyers and their lawyers were frantically to establish where the body was. The Attorney General of the Republic of Zambia and the South African police did not comply with that agent order to surrender the body back to the family or to the funeral parliament of their choice. And then we learned very late in the night when they finally found the body that uh uh a post-mote was conducted on the remains of the elected president without the authority, consent, or presence of any family member or lawyer for the family.

SPEAKER_31 2:53:48

Ultimately, this has to be resolved one way or the other. Uh, what is the view of the patriotic front around what the most amicable way is to resolve this ongoing dispute between the family and the government?

SPEAKER_35 2:54:03

The family has been very clear, and uh the patriotic front has also been very clear. The family wants to put the remains of the late president in Zambia, they want him buried in Zambia, they want this matter to be settled, and it should be done with the wishes of the late president and the wishes of the family government. But the Zambian government has been pulling itself and insisting that the late president should be buried in accordance with the state protocols. The former president, President Edgar Lung, had issues. The family has had issues, and they are merely uh determined that the wishes of the late president are honored, such as that at the funeral and burial that the current president must not attend. And you must know that that is not strange. For example, here in America, there's a famous senator who died and demanded that uh the current president Donald Trump should not attend the funeral. And President Donald Trump respected the wish of the family. In this case, President Akainde H. Lem and his government have not demonstrated that they are willing to honor the wishes of the late president, hence the standoff.

SPEAKER_31 2:55:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:55:22

Um the remains of the 60 presidents have at no point being in the physical capital of the government. They were eight. That is not the question of how the left is not closed. Of the head of head of cards and commanding of the public of that object is not extinguished by extinguisher of the house. And government will continue through the property of channels. And with the fashion, it's matter of fire. To exture the honor due to a former head of state of property is charged. To the local family, the position of the Zubian government is white. What does B through are the value of a former head of state was never meant to be a protest. And need not remain white. Government's willingness to engage the family in good faith to find an arrangement that honor. Our position remained and changed.

SPEAKER_12 2:58:21

Hello and thank you for joining us on WardNow. I am Olamidi Adiami. We begin here in Africa, where Zambia's attorney general says the government has a custody of Lung's remains, which have been removed from a funeral home in Pretoria. This, despite his family's claims, that a separate argent court order ruled that Linga's body will be returned to the facility. The Zambian government says it has now taken custody of the former president Edgar Lungu's body for a state funeral. The government had been in a long-standing dispute with his family over where he should be buried after he died at a clinic in South Africa last June while receiving treatment at an undisclosed location for an undisclosed illness. His family were open to give him a private burial ceremony in Johannesburg that will exclude the presence of his successor and political rival, the incumbent uh president of Zambia, Akainde Ichilema. They maintained that one of Edgar's uh Lingu's last wishes, wishes rather, was that uh the current president should neither be anywhere near his body nor preside over his funeral. Last year, a South African High Court sided with the Zambian government ordering the repatriation of Lungu's remains for a state funeral. Edgar Lingu led Zambia from 2015 until 2021 when he lost uh the elections by a huge margin to um HLM. For a closer look uh at the rift over the burial of uh Lungu and uh the Zambian leadership, international relations expert and founder Pan-African Forum Limited, uh, Dr. David Matsanga joins me from the United Kingdom. Uh, doctor, thank you for joining us um on on the wall now. Uh well this is uh the latest twist that we're seeing in a 10-month saga of what should um happen to the former president's uh body following a long-standing feud uh between uh both sides. But aside the court's uh decision, what's your own reaction?

SPEAKER_05 3:00:26

This is a very sad moment for Africa. It is unafrican for us to have this as a headline when somebody has died in Africa. We don't go to this level. We have exposed our ignorance of the African values, African customs. I am one of the few people who has written to my young man, he's younger than me because he was part of my group that used to come to listen to my lectures in London when he was in Birmingham University, President Hekrema. I have written to him this morning telling him, please don't do this. If there is a family, you are not next of king. If there is a problem of push and pull, just avoid this public, you know, court battles in and out, in and out. I think the family has a say. If the will says it doesn't want to be buried, whatever it is. I have asked President Kirima uh uh to just avoid, leave it, surrender it, let the burial take place, and that's it.

SPEAKER_12 3:01:44

Um beyond um uh you know the court rulings, this is a really difficult uh time for the family. Um uh now the government seems that they do not want to, you know, um uh accept this uh court ruling. But how should one interpret uh the Zambian government's insistence on on a state's funeral? Considering, I mean, it was their president at some point, but to you, does it reflect genuine national protocol? Or this is another political calculation?

SPEAKER_05 3:02:11

It's a political calculation because he knows he's gonna lose the job. There's an election in uh just coming in a few months in in Zambia, you know that. And he wants to use the body of the money he hated so much to have a political capital. So I don't think the family is willing to go that route. This man had a bad relationship with with the late. They were they had battles. He had removed cars, he had removed security, he has told him to remove, return everything that was worth. Then why do you want him when he's dead? I think on this one I stand with the family. The family has a right to take their person, they are the next of king. Mr. The President is not the next of king, Mr. Hekrema is not the next of kin today, Mr. Lumbu. Why is it so personal? He hated him when he was alive, he never gave him medicine, he never allowed him to go out for even treatment. You can imagine. So, why do you want him now? He's dead. Above all, this is a shame, a big shame for Africa. In fact, it's a big, big shame for us Africans to pretend to be doing things like the things on the lion and the jewel of Lakunule. You know, there's no need of fighting over a dead body. You are head of state. If the family says he doesn't want to see you, leave him. Why do you want to put to use his body as a politics when you never liked him at all?

SPEAKER_12 3:03:48

And this this this is a big issue considering the history, um, such as uh the president's 2017 arrest and detention on uh treason charges under Lugu's um administration. Uh and from what you have said, uh it seems that uh this is sort of you know payback period. But this raises concerns as to um uh the integrity of the current leadership in Zambia at the moment. And now that uh Lugu actually dropped a statement that it should not be anywhere close to um uh his uh body, how much of this dispute is now shaped by grievance?

SPEAKER_05 3:04:22

I mean, another court also has issued an order for the body to be returned to where they found it because they have nowhere to fly the body, where are they going to take the body? The body is now under the custody of the government of the Republic of South Africa, and every airport, every plane, every every by road, by sea, by what, you can't take out the body until the court orders are served properly, executed. So there is nothing, it is a waste of time. This gentleman died in South Africa. He was not dying in a proper way as a head of state. He died as a person who had been actually victimized. Let him be buried by his family. The family is anguished. There is no peace between the family of Lungu and the family of Kilema. Leave the man to be buried as an African editor. I don't think this is something that we should go on huggling. What do you think these people, the Western countries, the Europeans look at us? What do we we think that we know something, but we don't know what they are saying now? Lots of things about how shallow we are, fighting of a dead body. Another thing is that reconciliation in Africa seems not to be there. There are no people don't reconcile. There are so many places where I've been in the middle of such a crisis, like in Angola Santos. I had to pick a phone to call the president of Angola to say, hello, what's going on? Allow a man to be buried. I don't see any.

SPEAKER_12 3:06:04

Originally, there are processes, you know, um in handling the funeral of uh former leaders, heads of state, and also, you know, presidents. Perhaps that's what um uh the Zambian government is trying to ensure in this case, aside uh the political rift on ground. But let's talk about what uh presidents this really says for how African governments now handle um, you know, the burial of their former leaders as against the family wishes. How can this be balanced between the state interest and uh historical record and also the the family's wishes for privacy and dignity?

SPEAKER_05 3:06:37

In any case, it pitches the character of bad politics we have on the continent of Africa. Kiruba never wanted Mr. Kirun uh uh uh uh uh uh Kawunda to be buried in in Zambia. He stripped Kawunda off. This these Zambians have got very bad manners. They stripped Kawunda off citizenship, jailed him. He never wanted him to be buried fortunately or unfortunately for God. God called Mr. Churuba before Mr. Kawunda. We we struggled in Africa to make sure that Mr. Kaunda is released from jail. This man again, also with his friend, it teaches us there is something wrong with our democracy, our politics, our governance. We must actually Africa needs to go back, my sister, to a drawing board. Is this type of one man one vote democracy? Elections.