HOSTING CHARLES LONGWE

CHARLES LONGWE HAS TAKEN A FRESH CHALLENGE TO COURT SEEKING TO NULLIFY PRESIDENT HICHILEMA'S NOMINATIONS ON THE BASIS THAT HE DID NOT HAVE A VALID GENERAL CONFERENCE  

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This is the reason why. Ciao, tia, zambete cine la pantaggi. You are Kajeka! You almost never went to it. You are not your boss! Let's try, let's try this. Yeah, I think we had an issue with volume. Let me just resolve that. Can you hear us very clearly? If you can, we want to start very quickly. Thank you very much. We are hosting our dear brother Charles Longway, a high value target at this stage. And I'll be explaining. Let me just resolve briefly the issue of this volume issue. Oh God, wake up and find too much. Thank you very much. Welcome to today's broadcast. We are hosting Charles Longway. And please stay tuned. Tell us where you are watching us from and share the broadcast. They want to come in power. They promised us a lot of things. They said that fuel is going to be cheap. To have said that what was lacking then was ridiculous, ridership was a good thing. What is happening in Zambia? What is he saying? Even yesterday when he was in parliament, I for one, I expected him to tackle critical issues. The issue of manga. And yet the president went to that side. Instead of addressing important issues, because of electricity, instead of the president concentrating electricity and talking about Motoka, Yamina Kuna Bucha. Thank you very much. I think we are done. UPND founder member now is seeking the nullification of uh the nominations of President Hakainde Ichilema. You are aware that he's been running this battle with the UPND, that the UPND has not held a valid general conference. And you tell us why. And that particular matter is in court. But the UPND proceeded to gather a crowd and purport that it was a general conference, and then they've taken their presidential candidate to ECZ, who has successfully filed his nominations. Charles Longwe contends that President Hakende Chilema is not a valid candidate, and his nomination must be nullified. Now that's a dramatic process. Let me bring in uh Charles Longwe. He, the horse's mouth, he tells us what his case is. My dear brother, thank you for accepting our invitation at a short notice, and we are grateful. We recognize you are brave and you are literally risking your life by pursuing this matter. Thank you very much, uh Emmanuel, for the invite. Um grateful that you could uh give us this opportunity that we may attract Columbia and citizens in their diaspora and everywhere else. It's really a great pleasure to be on your show once again. Thank you. Just a correction, maybe as we start. Uh I heard you refer to me as a founder member. I'm not a founder member of the organization. Just as a correction, yes, I'm a long-standing member of the organization, but not a founder member. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for that clarification. Charles, you've been pursuing this matter. You recognize that the party, uh, the party's uh mandate for the president and the national management committee had expired. You wrote letters to uh the party, but the secretary general, and alerted them about this matter. And then since then, you've been pursuing this matter, both in your party and in the in the courts of law. Just walk us through that process. Just to start by saying that you know that these matters are in court, so I'll be restrained to speak clearly or maybe deeply into these matters so that I don't prejudice my own cases before the court. But all I could say is like, look, since the expiration of the mandate of the office bearers in our organization, I took certain actions to see how we could redress that lawfully. Uh, when we couldn't do it internally, we sought to engage the court to intervene. And uh that was the matter we started in the High Court. Uh that matter is still ongoing. Uh but uh currently there is also another matter which I commenced in the Constitutional Court. As you know, this relates to the nominations. So it will be important for your audience and for the people listening to us to distinguish the two matters very clearly. Because the matter in the High Court has to do with our leadership contestations and uh who should be the rightful office bearers, the leadership and uh conventions and so forth in the party. In other words, who should be in the hierarchy now that the political mandate or the organizational mandate for the leaders had expired. That's what we are dealing with in the High Court. However, in the constitutional court, this is uh a provision in the constitution. You know, since the amendment in 2016, there is an opportunity if you have um calls for any candidate, be it a councillor, a mayor, an MP, or indeed a president. You could have different reasons why you feel that this person's nomination before they attend into a candidate for an election, you are given seven days, and you could approach either the high court if it's the MPs, or you could approach the constitutional court in this case if it's the president, or if it's counselors and council chairpersons, you can go to the major streets court. So if you go to the major streets court, there is a procedure there. So currently I'm pursuing one where I've gone to the constitutional court to challenge the eligibility, or not the challenge the eligibility, but the nomination of the candidate by the United Party for National Development, which is my party, uh floating or floating uh Mr. Haka in the H Lema as our presidential candidate. So that's where we are. Um Mr. Longway, so what is the contention? The UPND are saying they'll be a validly nominated candidate. He successfully held a general conference. What is your contention? Wow, look, that will be what they will be saying. What I'm saying is something else. Look, uh I'm taking a historical uh perspective in this to uh uh inform the court of my views why a particular person at this time cannot be candidate. I don't want to really go into the details because uh I've been guided that sometimes I do talk too much about my cases and they are prejudicial. So all I could say is that that is their view that what the convention they held recently, is it last month, which I call uh just a dongo dongo or things like that. It's just a facade, in as far as I'm concerned. That is the issue which is in contention in the high court. But I have my own grounds, which I feel before the constitutional court, there was actually a breach of article 60. And and that uh I could uh say is an is a matter which only the constitutional court can handle. That's why we are in the courts today. So it is basically questioning whether the UPND in its procedures and uh so forth are not in breach of Article 60. Yeah, that's what we are doing. I I think that's the summary I can give. Yes, yes, I recognize Mr. Longway so that you do not fall far with contempt issues. Uh but speak to Article 60. What does it say? What does it direct political parties to do? This is uh and it reminds me of the first time I appeared on your show. I I and I made this clear, and if you may recall, I said um there is uh chance in political parties today to practice democracy intraparty. But this is no longer an option. This is what is stipulated in the constitution in Article 60. You know, there are many clauses there, but one of the things which it talks about there is that political parties now are recognized what you can call. You could simply place it as like constitutional actors. These are structural bodies now, they have been elevated from churches, you know. When they are registered under the registrar of societies, they were like common clubs. And uh the their behavior, they are never fair about it to change the way the SDA behaves, the way the Catholic behaves, and so you leave it to them, it's just their club. But since the 2016 election, no, no, constitutional amendment, political parties have been elevated to be constitutional actors. So they have been elevated to a point where they participate in the governance structure differently from the way they would be considered in the past. And so that calls for higher responsibility, and it also calls for us as citizens to watch very carefully, or as members I would say that we should be compliant with the laws and um the rules, the statutory provisions across all manner of um registration processes. Now, one of the things which is important and which I always emphasize is that political parties have leadership. Now, that leadership in under Article 60, it provides that for that leadership to arise, political parties should hold regular intra-party elections. In fact, it even adds the term free and fair. So what we are expected to do in August, where we are holding the national election and we are to hold this free and fair, where you have a date of nomination, it's not known, it's known. Rather, the date of which the election will be to held is known. The candidates are known. The mirror of what we are doing at the national level should be seen in a political party. A political party should have a date of its convention known or announced to the members. Members should participate in that election, electoral process. Choose candidates, and those candidates eventually emerge as the leaders in that of in that society. Now that is what happened, most of the government. And it has worried me because I've been in political quite a long time. I see that the observance is lacking. And the register of societies is not able to enforce compliance. So we have chaos in the leadership structures of political parties across the board. I can give you, Ambassador. Maybe I'll start with the Patriotic Front so that I don't uh get into the issues of um concept in the UPND. Let me just give you an illustration. I can give you offhand. Since the formation of the PF, you started with the president Michael Sata. It took, I think, Servia Chimba in 2008 to raise alarm that Patriotic Front was not holding leadership elections. That was when Michael Sata was seeking to be a candidate in terms of a by-election after President Manuasa died. So we saw after that that in 2011 Patriotic Front was able to hold a convention. After that, I think President Sata died. You only held a convention which elected the president. I didn't see how the other MCCs were elected. In 2021, there's a famous uh saying that the Patriotic Front president just came himself. So candidate in a briefcase with a list of NMC members. Now I don't know that those are your practices. Let's go to FDD. FDD, we find that you have uh Christian Tembo image as president, then he leaves, Edith Nawaki takes over. After Edith Nawaki, what do we see? No election. I don't remember a convention in the FDD. Antonio Manza is my friend. I don't remember it. If you go to UNIP, a similar thing. TDNG takes over from, I think it's President Kaunda, his father. Meso rest in peace. We don't see a convention or a Congress in UNIP until 2020 when he's removed. But all these political parties were in existence. And UPND has also its own history, which I've been dealing with, to say, look, these political parties are similar. Their behavior, intra-party democracy, died. Now, if we don't stand up as citizens and check these very well, we will be doing these circles, going to general elections, hoping to get a better result every time. You'll never get it. The people you are electing are not democrats. They don't have it at heart. This I say openly. Because if they had it at heart, they say charity begins at home. We should have been able to see it in the intra-party processes in their own practices. We don't see it. Why? Because they don't mean it. All they want looking for is to be, let me put it like this. They take political parties to be special purposes, special purpose vehicles to run for office and uh assume executive power. That's not what a political party is. And so when I stand from where I stand, I and I see article 60 of the constitution prescribe how a political party in modern-day Zambia should operate. I don't segregate. Both opposition and ruling party, I raise the standard and say, let's play this game. So what I've done might be misunderstood by many. But I'm just being fair. I'm saying let's all raise the bar. If we are saying that we have amended the constitution and in the last Bill 7 um amendment, there was nothing to do with Article 60, meaning we are we we appreciate the way it is, then why don't we follow it? You saw the elective processes even within the UPND. Maybe I can discuss that because there is a fallout in terms of um picking candidates. Article 60 clearly tells us that a political party has rights. To conduct primary elections. Primary elections are those elections which result in the adoption of candidates. Now, as as I speak to you, Ambassador, across the whole country, I would want to find out which candidate sought a nomination following a process in the intra-party process where they came first or second in a primary election. That answer will be far in between. Not so many follow these. So it's important that political parties start practicing these things intra-part. Why we have so many uh what you call independents right now is a failure of intra-party democracy all across the board. It's a total failure, and that's what causes me to move as a person who understands these politics very well. That don't deceive the people at in August. You are not playing by the rules. You are trying to skim your way to the Zambian people and present yourselves as angels. Come, let's examine your path. And that's where we are. And I'm not pulling any punches. I'm saying all the political parties, all of them, same level. So when we go for the ruling party like this, that will be the standard for everyone. Make no mistake, there is no one who's going to escape this because I don't understand how these other political parties have come up with candidates. So in the UPND, I'm asking, did you live up to the details of Article 60? What is ranking? I asked my friends, what is ranking? There is an electoral process called in Article 60, primary elections. Now that's a constitutional stipulation. I don't care what an NMC or MCC resolution is. It has to be constitutional. You cannot do away with primaries and their results and follow ranking. Ranking is in my term, in my understanding, is just corruption. Because how do you end up with a candidate by ranking? It's not provided for. So I say this sincerely and I appeal to the consciousness of many Zambians that this hypocrisy you do every time after five years, hoping to get a different result. You are joking. The source of these candidates who are going to occupy public and state offices is this intra-party. Examine it. If I have a way to say it across the board, examine the intra-party practices. When that fails, democracy fails. Ambassador, it's article 60 is very instructive. If we can start from there, if the registrar can enforce that in our returns every year, then we'll be starting off on a better foot across the board. I think that's what I could say about in general about Article 60. It's a key article for the new creature of political parties in this country. And all of you should read that article and see whether that candidate whom you are looking at in August went through a primary election. Thank you very much. Secondly, is the opposition, the opposition have been victims of abuse of the registrar of societies, being told that you haven't held elections, or a group has come without following any constitution of that particular party, hold election, and the registrar of societies has even changed the office bearers. I have in mind the Patriotic Front, I've in mind NDC, the People's Party. There are about six, seven political parties that have UNIP itself that have been affected by the use of the law where the office bearers are changed unilaterally without following the party constitution. I draw that to you because you want a UPND to adhere to its own constitution and also in relation to the Republican constitution. So those would be my two questions. As a UPND practiced internal democracy, has it held regular elections and then the opposition that have been victims I'll address those squarely. I think I wouldn't be talking to you today if I was saying in the UPND we have done that. To say, guys, what we are doing is nothing um close to what the statute says. First, the Republican constitution, then our own constitution. So your question to your question, has the UPND lived up to this? My answer is no. And uh whether I'm wrong, that's why we're in court and that will be decided. And I I would want the matter to be addressed on its merits. That's what we seek. So I don't think the UPND is an example. That said, I don't think the opposition are living up to that either. And I'm happy, Ambassador, that I'm speaking to you and I'll be dovetailing between the PF and uh in UPND. The last time when I was on your show, I said the problems in the opposition, more especially the party PF, had largely to do with your own members. I think you recall that, Ambassador. The conduct of members in the Patriotic Front brought it downfall. Not largely because of the maneuvers in the UPND. No. They may have taken advantage, and I think you know you understand what it is in politics when the door is open, you you walk through. But uh I said these guys, and I called them Utu Conkuviti, you know. And then you have this other one, the most devastating one. Mao Sampa. I don't know what he's looking for and what he wants. You know, he's walking like a headless chicken. Because I don't understand people like him. So when he holds a convention in the middle of the night, one independence day, and he says that's a convention, and you ask me today, whether in the political party PF or in the opposition you have actually held intra-party election. If the standard of what you are talking about is what Maus did, it's so shameful. No. That standard falls below. Because even in your party constitution as PF, there is a constituted number of delegates. And how those delegates emerge to form the Electoral College, all the members know that. And Maus knows that. Wow. But what do we see? His colleague also, Chavinga, can claim to be president of a political party in that fashion. So I say that both in the opposition and the UPND, the standard for which we seek office either in leadership at the national level or leadership in the political parties is through crookedness. Shrewd mingalato. No one wants to look at the letter of the law and just follow it. Then when it comes to general election like this, we want to follow the letter. It can't work. But there are maneuvers which we are talking about which have to do with the registrar of societies, who, you know, the entries, the office. I saw one sad one, uh, you know, when they tackled the issue of um Sean Tembo, where his political party was reduced to a church. Things like that are administrative, and I might not be too competent to comment. But I can say this: I've challenged the the registrar over the dealings of registr of registration of our organization. I'm not satisfied. That is why I'm questioning the nomination of my president in the republic, Hakka in the HLM. It's purely because I'm not satisfied with how they have handled the registration of office bearers in the ruling party. That's a complaint I have. It's below par. So speak to that. Who should be office bearers? Who should be office bearers? And why are the current office bearers uh not qualified to be on the register? Umbassador, it's important to note something. Remember, I said that uh political parties are registered. There is a law under the register of societies. How a society is commenced when you have 10 or more people, they might have initially an exemption certificate, then later on they'll be given a full certificate and recognition is given. The membership grows. As the membership grows through the document, the constitution, they hold regular elections, intra-party elections at branch, constituency, district, province, and national levels. But those elections in these organizations are time bound. In other words, they are there are term limits. You serve for three years or you serve for five years, but you file returns annually with the registrar. Because you see, the provinces or the provincial leadership is like a branch of the main political party. So under the registrar of societies, provincial officials should file returns, just like the national management or national on MCCs and so forth at that level file returns. Even provincial officials should file returns. So if you are holding intra-party elections regularly, you file returns annually. It means that if you are complying every year, at a time when elections apply intra-party, at that very year or season of elections, you will then inform the registrar. And the registrar should be able to look at your document and say you are coming here to renew or to file returns for the provincial authorities. The term is three years, or the term is five years. When last did you hold the intra-party elections? Not just receiving documents from you. So the failure is just it starts there. Where in the political parties there is no supervision by the registrar when filing returns as to how the leadership emerged, as long as they can fill in the names. So the failure is from the registrar of society. So if to answer your question, simply put this force squarely on the registrar of societies, they might claim that that is not their role to enforce, then whose role is it? Because they cannot be authenticated what you call now with this process under the electoral process act, they are now authenticating signatories of a certificate, which is an adoption certificate. If they cannot supervise political parties as to when they hold elections, and that those officers who are listed there are authentic leaders having gone through an intra-party process. If they can't do that, then what are they doing? So if you ask me, the failure starts right there. And so the fix has to be with the registrar. Not to look at the names of the opposition group, whether this is the popular party or whatever, but to just do or perform their function. That when returns are being filed, they should come in line with the statute of that political party. That these are office bearers elected in terms of the law. That's what I would say. So the registrar's office has failed this country. If they are understaffed, we should hear them saying they are understaffed. And the role of the attorney general would be advisory and they would know how to implement that. So the failure is it has been like this. I can tell you, I'm not just talking about the current registrar. It's been running. Remember, I told you like uh under UNIP from Tilienji in 2000 to 2020. What tenure is that? And the registrar recognized UNIP as a lawful society. I told you of uh FDD. Same. So what are they doing? So they should be helping by enforcing, and that's where Article 60 comes in. So if it's a if it's an enforcement mechanism, maybe this will come through the bill, which in the next one year, as the Constitution Court has ruled now that the bill, an electoral, no, no, no, a political party's bill should come into place. Maybe under that it will be more effectual. But presently the law stipulates that the registrar is responsible. Not for the confusion, but to uh to enable all political parties to comply with their statutes, they should have been helpful. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Long, and thank you for those insights. Let's go to the institutions. We've just talked about registrar of societies, and that's my concern. The complaint the last five years, both by local stakeholders such as the Church, Laz, and by international bodies like the UN, Human Rights Commission, and international human rights NGOs, have raised alarm that there is a quick and deteriorating democratic state in Zambia. There is a shrinking democratic space, shrinking civic space, shrinking media space. President Akaindechem has proceeded to enact laws that are deemed extremely repressive. You have gone to court. You have faith that the court can give you justice. What would you say about the state of our institutions, the threats they suffer, that they may not act independently? And I noticed that another institution you've sued is the Electoral Commission of Zambia, because you say the ECZ should have scrutinized the nominations of President Haka Indech Lemon. Probably you will not even be in court if the ECZ had done its job. Ambassador, uh I'll start with the last part of your question. I included in my suit the electoral commission. Not that they should have scrutinized, they were on notice of our uh dispute, and that uh they should have then examined that what they were doing uh was um sort of uh I I want to use the correct term here, uh that when examining the nomination before them, since they were on notice of my letter which had uh clearly outlined what my grievance was and at the time they were filed, they should have then taken into account that uh there is something here. I'll tell you about the state of institutions and uh the concern I have with institutions. Maybe I'll go a step back because it will be important that I I do this. Institutions, you know, first of all, we need to, as people, we need to have confidence in the institutions. We need to challenge the officers there who have been sworn in. Most of them, you know, have been sworn in. So we need to lawfully approach them, encourage them to do the right thing. And I'm one person who has always pushed any public officer who is charged with a responsibility to do their part, but I have to exercise my right to approach them. So even as I approach the court, there is a general sense that courts are biased towards the ruling party. I I leave that aside. I do my part and I try to do it competently. I did this even uh in 2021. You know, I challenged the Dr. Edgar Lungu's nomination. Even if I knew we were in the opposition at that time, I had all the confidence that our approach this court is that same confidence I have today. That uh our approach a court and they should hear me. Now we shouldn't lose faith in these institutions. Maybe the players are not doing very well, but we need first of all to approach them. I approached the JCC recently, I approached parliament. Parliament let me down. I had allegations labeled against some people who were being sworn in or maybe who are being ratified before parliament. And the speakers' committee did not call me to hear me before they could ratify certain individuals. But you see, we need first of all to approach these institutions. First of all, respect the office bearers and approach them with reason and say, look, I have this issue. I will not speculate. Uh first of all, wait and see their conduct. And if they they veer off their responsibilities, I'm the first one to call them out. I don't have to be in the opposition. If they fall below the standard which is expected of them, because when they hold that Bible and they are sworn in before the president, they are sworn in in my stead as a citizen that they will perform their duties to the best of their ability. And when they start playing cadarism on an issue which is straightforward, they are letting down the whole population. So the reports in the international media, maybe in civil society, about the shrinking democratic space should first of all be more specific about the issues. We shouldn't speculate. I like to itemize what I've done, and uh when I say this thing has failed, I'll tell you where it fell. So the gen, you know, I won't, I will not generalize that there's a shrinking space. You see, Emmanuel, I want to say something about your invitation to me on your shows. I I want to put something in context. You see, there is a sh there is a tendency for people who have been given jobs or who are in office public offices right now to pander to those people who are in the ruling party and do wrong. We are all citizens, and we should be accorded equal opportunity, whether it's the media, we should be allowed to. I should be able to have this discourse with Grevasio. But Gravezok will not invite me. Okay? Maybe because they I'm stereotyped to be against Haka in the HLM. Haka in the HLM, why should I be against him? I just am against certain things which I see as maladies. And I'll challenge that. And so Gravazio should be able to give me audience on ZNBC. You know, I sometimes tell myself the ZNBC of UNIP was far better than this ZNBC under UPND. Because under UNIP, we could see an ad MMD criticizing the then administration of UNIP and it will be aired. But today what we see on that ZNBC, if I were president or if I are given one opportunity, I'll fire the whole board one time. Because they are below PA. They are in this generation, but the journalists or the administrators who are there in the one under the one party state were faring even better. So when you talk about the shrinking democratic space, I look at the players. Who are these people? Where do you get these people whom we have put in offices? What's their track record in media? What is their track record in governance institutions? How do you come about to get judges? How do you come about to get PSs? Now, if these guys you are just picking them from the street as cards because they sing a certain song. And remember, Ambassador, last time I told you that this policy, I blame it squarely on the policy of the patriotic front. And UPND has a tendency of saying if UPN, if if PF used to do it, we also do it. And that degenerates the standard in the public sector. Because Patriotic Front brought this, what I called an evil policy of getting staunch PF cudders to run parastators. And I'm telling you, even in my party, they have that as justification to take that step. So we need to examine when we now say that there's shrinking democratic space, it's because the UPND have picked cards. That's all. The UPND have picked cuddles and put them in these positions and they would do the party's bidding. And so the standard is lowered. So what's good for the goose is good for the ganda. But I'll tell you that as a citizen, if I didn't like it under PF, I'll criticize it under UPND, and I would expect UPND to do better. Yes, Mr. Ambassador, that's what I would say. If there's a shrinking democratic space, it's because us as citizens have sat back and allowed Qadarism to enter the civil service, which is wrong. Which is wrong. Absolutely wrong. And this seed was greatly sold by the Patriotic Front police. And the UPND have just scaled it up and we are suffering the consequences as a nation. So when we complain as citizens, let's introspect and find a solution. Which solution we shouldn't be pointing at this administration or that person, but saying this policy, what they call cadder deployment in certain jurisdictions, has failed in Zambia. Because the kind of officials you send to these offices are not competent. They are just serving at the whims. They don't have any professional bias. They have maybe a political bias. And that's what I've seen from where I stand. So I'll not be ashamed to say we have failed in the UPND just as much as PF failed. Maybe we used it at the time to beat PF. To say PF are unprofessional, they have cuddles and so forth. But when it comes when the rubber hits the road, we are doing exactly the same thing. So we should, as a people, as Zambians come and say this thing we have as Zambians in the political circles that we have actually failed. And we should be honest and now have a discussion and say how do we then professionalize our civil service? Yeah. And cut off this cadarism. Thank you very much. Yeah, I like the issue you raised of ZMBC that is worse than it was and uh unique. In fact, that's what we are saying about all institutions. That you can have a judiciary that pronounced a death sentence against a son of a sitting president that was under UNIP. You had MPs that called for multi-party democracy in the UNIP parliament in 1989, 1990, and 1991. You can see that we seem to have deteriorated to below the one-party state. Let me throw this question. You've raised a very critical issues regarding the state of the uh uh UPND, that as a society it has failed to adhere to its standards. You've even called, you know, for this matter in court. UPND, if we had a proper, proper uh judiciary, probably would not have a candidate in this election. Do you feel that you've received support from the opposition, who especially that have been victims of um uh uh this vindictiveness, the use of state institutions against them, where their political parties are robbed or they are removed from their political parties. And here you are pursuing the same standards for the UPND. And then the opposition, in your view, have they supported you or they've been quiet on this matter? No, first of all, Ambassador, I have um I have not gone out there, and this even in the UPND, they will tell you. We have not gone out there in the UPND to seek those who understand our position uh to mobilize against what I'm calling the purported leaders to the opposition to seek for support. But I speak to the consciousness of the Zambian people, whether be it in the opposition of or the ruling party, to say pay attention to what I'm saying. And I would have expected my sincerity, because you see, I move sincerely and openly before all. You see, because this thing which I'm talking about affects the opposition. And look at the the patriot in front. The ambassador, I'll say this first. It's sad that in election there is no PF on the ballot. A former ruling party, five years after losing power, they are not on the ballot. Now, when I say that and I'm addressing the issues of intra-party democracy, yes, as a citizen, I would expect those in the patriotic front to sympathize and support me. I would expect civil society who know what the issues are intra-party wise in the in this country to support me. I would expect the church to support what I'm saying. Because I have I I move sincerely that if I don't help this country, who will? Because this has to be addressed in the context of a ruling party. That all of you should ask the same question. Put aside the quenu first, leave quenu alone. Ask yourself, has UPND lived to your expectation? I'll give an example. We had this chaotic adoption process where you even see now there are so many independents, some of them are beaten at the polling stations, some of them are being asked to withdraw, some of them are being bribed. We hear on the on social media every day we see it. And some people in my own political party are celebrating. That's a failure of democracy. It's win by all means. No. So I would have expected those of our citizenry, the church, the civil society, to pay particular attention to what we are saying. You were saying, may I address the church through you, if you allow, Ambassador? Because they are the conscious of the nation. You criticized Pierre so strongly, and I was in the forefront along with many people who criticized Pierre. I would have expected you to speak even louder this time. Because what we said we'll do, we are not doing. If anything, we are getting waste. This I say unashamedly, we are not doing well. And so I would have expected the clear voice of the church of the non-governmental organizations to hear what we are saying. Save this country, love this country. UNIP is gone, MMD gone, PF is gone. This UPND will go one day. Let's not preserve it. Let's preserve Zambia. Let's love Zambia first. That's all I ask. And I would have expected many of you citizens to hear clearly that this nation needs to be loved and taken care of, and you as citizens listening to me now should do a bit more. Registering and voting is one thing, and we are thankful for those who have done that. But those of you who are in advocacy should pay particular attention to the issues we are raising in our political parties. We love this country. You know, there's one competition me and Haga in the Achinema have is who loves the country most. That one we do have it, and we do express it. And when when we supported him and he became president, he says, look, we need to add value. Transform these uh resources we have to value to value so that we can benefit this nation. I said, go for it. I support it. But I also have a passion in my love for my country this way, that will not rule this country without laws, lawlessly, and with impunity. In that, there we part ways and we meet at the constitutional court because I also have a passion for my country, and my passion is not based on what returns I get from those investments in the mines or whichever industry, but to see a brighter future for the children of this country. And if as Zambians will take that kind of view, an eternal one, we'll build a better society. So I say this earnestly openly and I appeal to the consciousness of those in the church. You can't keep quiet. Political parties have been decimated in this country. We have candidates. I don't know, there's this party. You know, one day I was looking, ambassador, I'll say this figurative. Yes, yes. There's a political party now on the ballot, you know. I don't know whether in the R S V P or something. I don't know whether that's the political party Munduvire has. I don't know. Because from nowhere it just appears. It should worry the nation. Because that political party, we don't know what it stands for. We have not seen its constitution. So, as civil society, as the church, the conscious of this nation, we should be worried the intra-party processes in that political party. We should. Because that's where the problems emanate from. We should examine that. It's not just qualifying for nomination as candidate, it's beyond that. It's what does it say in their statute? Because that party was will most probably become the next uh ruling party. Then that's when you now read its statute to know what it says about uh citizens, about this. So we should have a higher test, and that test calls for you who are of the colour to say you people in the political front, put your houses in order. But Mr. Sorry, sorry, Ambassador Mamba, as I say this, there's something I want to say. Wonderful, wonderful. Um which count will have denied, and um we're not going to go to court to defend ourselves, and uh we are very hopeful that justice will prepare. For now, as you know, we all know that I'm not a media afraid. I don't like talking to the media unnecessarily, but just to confirm that an arrest has been effected, I have been represented by Mr. Buddh Shumba, third council, and three other leaders, Dr. Brian Kaber and two other gentlemen, Mr. Simbele and Mr. Masila. The interview was done professionally, I must say, without acrimony, and now we are just going to wait for justice's wheels to start turning. Um but also maybe just one short but large statement is to say from my end, if I knew then what I know now, I'm sure I would have behaved differently, and that um I personally did not see the future to be like this, and I can only say that uh from my eyes, the future is no longer what it used to be. Thank you. Thank you very much. I guess uh Charles, you'd also share the same words because at no time did you ever think that you have to take your own party and your president to court. Viewers share the program, share the line, share um you know, the broadcast wherever you are watching us from. We'll be opening phone lines. And if you have questions for Mr. Charles Longway, uh please ask your question. We need to quickly release him um uh for his own safety. And you know, we do not want our political leaders to be to be moving in the night. So I want to quickly um allow uh Mr. Charles Longway to go. So please call and ask your questions if you have any. Hey, Mr. Longwe, before we went for a break, I just you cut your thoughts just to take some water. Please finish your thoughts. Yeah, thank you very much, uh Ambassador. I had to take some water uh and uh it was gracious, though you know I don't know what it is. Namu Namu Dini Kumba i Dengire. Why you can acquit. It's coming, it's coming. And that on deck again. So so so you know you know what has happened. The um the crooks on social media are licensing that song as their. Because it's receiving so much airplay across all platforms. So you have people that have specialized in claiming copyrights and the earn money on something that is not there. That's what has happened to that song. So every time we play it, there are multiple flags that are rising because crooks have registered it as their song. But I've still played. If you have uh a question for our dear brother, Mr. Longwe, please um let's go through. So that's what I was explaining about that song that I noticed that it's raising flags. Um, and when I check the signature, people that didn't even do the songs are claiming copyright. There's a gentleman from um Kitwe and another one from abroad. Hello, Cola. Please tell us your name and where you're calling us from and make your contribution. My name is Kelvin, I'm calling from US. Uh, Mr. Longwe, how are you? He's listening to you, thank you. Mr. Longwe, my concern is the I want you to clarify on PF and the UV and D. Uh, looking at the Joshua society situation, I'm seeing like officers from that office, it was very difficult for them. But you can see that we hate that things were happening even in the evening. So, how do you advise to the next government from what you have seen? Thank you. Thank you very much. Hello, caller. Please tell us your name and where you're calling us from and make your contributions. Thank you very much. Uh this is on Oscar. I'm calling from yesterday. Just a minute. Yeah, yes, yes, Father. Make your contribution. Yes, please. Uh, thank you. Good evening, Mr. Longwe, and um and thanks for this uh good program. Mr. Longwe has talked about uh the church um silence. Um, and I think I would say uh Mr. Longwe, who is a UPND member and one of the founding fathers of uh UPND knows what is happening in the country. Mr. Longwe appreciate your concern, your patriotism, you are showing patriotism to speak and uh and contribute so that we can have a sane political environment in our country. Now, Mr. Longwe, you know exactly that this situation where up to today, where in the constitution we are given 90 days for all political competitors to go out and campaign, and your president, President Haka Ndeshidema, has not allowed his colleagues to go out and campaign. Why can you compare his love for the country to yourself, your love for the country when up to today? It has never happened, Mr. Longo, it has never happened in the history of politics in Zambia that 90 days clicks and opposition leaders are not given the possibility to start making their campaigns. Not only 90 days, they have not done it for the past almost four years. So, Mr. Longway, although I appreciate your patriotism, why can't you uh why can't you um advise your president of your party, Hakainde Chilema, president of UPND? Why can't you allow him? Why can't you speak to him if you love the country? Let him respect the constitution. Advise him to allow with immediate effect the opposition political parties to go and campaign. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. There are so many calls. Let's see how we can quickly process them. Hello, caller. Please tell tell us your name and where you're calling us from. Hello, caller. This call has muted himself. Cola, quickly unmute yourself and answer. Yes, caller. Okay, okay. I think sorry, I didn't notice. Good uh evening, ambassador. Good uh evening, uh Mr. Longway. Thank you. Um uh my name is MK6. I'm in Pretoria. Uh Mr. Longwe, um saying my name like that because I want you to know something. I think it was a question by Mr. Samba about uh the shrinking democracy, the shrinking spaces, and oh that wasted by the UN special support waters for human rights. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who's going to say my name like that. You'll be able to hear more people be actually anonymous. That is for a reason, and that is why you were asked to say, Have you seen that uh the spaces have shrinked? Now I want to answer to your call. You've called us the citizens of this country to stand up and speak to truth. I want to answer to you that uh we are speaking not louder, but we are speaking within our hearts, knowing for sure to say once we speak, we might go in. And what H has done with his government is that uh they have used the Western formula whereby they first make you suffer economically so that you don't speak, all you concentrate on is looking for your quaches, looking for your money. So we have seen Madame Katerendio C went to stand for is it that mayor, the the lady wanted to to to stand as mayor in Musaka, but she was picked, and those are the kinds of people that we allowed ourselves for the past five years, and this is why you see maybe the church has stopped talking. We saw what happened to the late emeritus uh Archbishop Pundu. He was at one point, um what do you call it? He was at one point uh done like the way they did to Emmanuel Banda. He never knew where he was picked from and where he found himself. I think we know the stories in the public domain. So those are the kinds of people that we have allowed ourselves to rule on us for the past five years. And I want to just ask you, I want to ask you, I have I've heard from the beginning until now, I've heard how you have propounded this program, and I want to ask you looking at the people or the leaders, the politicians that we have currently, if you were to choose one, I'm asking you for a purpose. If you were to to uh to to choose one amongst these, who would you go for? I think that is the only question I have for you. Thank you so much, Ambassador. Thank you very much. We'll take two more questions and allow uh uh Mr. Longwe to answer the questions. Hello, colour, please tell us your name and where you're calling us from. This is Precious Junonium from Livingstone. Yes, Precious, make your contribution. Yes, uh may I have a question. Uh Balongwe, uh I didn't hear where he started, but I just uh found him where he was uh talking about uh uh uh the same uh president waka in the gema with this uh nomination thing. So my question is uh in everything that president Waka in the gema is doing right now on your side, are you sure that uh president Waka in the Jema is a person who you can even take to court and you will succeed in everything that you are planning right now? Because me, when I'm looking, I I see like President Baka in the Jemma is a dictator. This is the reason why, even right now, it's not allowing other people to do the campaigning. If it was in time of PF, the campaigning could have started even in February or March. But right now you can see people they are in campaigning, but no one is allowed to do the campaigning freely, like the way they were doing in terms of PF. But President, what kind of dream? Right now, there are some people composing songs for them, but they don't condemn those people. But right now, me and my Facebook account has been uh blocked. They they are restricting my my Facebook account because I played Undou V and my capital. And I was blocked yesterday while I was lying. So now, President Maka Indegima, if you look at you, you think do you see that there is democracy in this party? He keeps reforming the nation that no, we have democracy. We have democracy like the way we had in this party president in previous. We just want you to answer this question uh correctly, please help the nation. But President Bakande do not take this country like it's his only home or it's his property. No, no, no, no. We are tired of this. If him we think like he can do whatever he wants to do, please, we need you as wise leaders, concerned citizens, work together and serve the people of Zambia. What is important right now is for you to serve the people of Zambia. Thank you. Thank you. Hello, Cola, please tell us your name and where you're calling us from and make your contribution. Hello, Mr. Ambassador, and hello, Mr. Longwe. Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, uh, Mr. Ambassador, I don't have uh a question for Mr. Longwe. All I want to say is uh Mr. Longwe, you are one of the few really you have clearly spoken out the truth, and I really thank you with all my heart for sharing your thoughts. You know, speaking out the truth around this time when it is so difficult and uncomfortable, it isn't something so easy. Yeah. All I can say is if there were many like you, our country would not have faced all the problems it is going through. Yeah, you know, the only question I'm asking myself actually is uh what's the point of changing the government if we tend to look back just like you had put it, saying that uh what are you complaining about? Because even PF was doing the same thing. You know, here we are not dealing with the other naga, no, no. We are dealing with the prominent people, people who are so highly educated. Highly educated. If I say highly educated, I highly educated. I don't I can't reach them. These people are supposed to actually need the country adequately to give everything to people who have put them there. There is no country without people. The country belongs to the people. This is what they should do because all the letting be for the people, no one wants to fit in the government, no one wants to the country. But putting us down really, putting us in under, it's not something that everyone would really feel happy about it. So, Mr. Longwe, I'm so happy to hear this, and I hope everyone is actually listening to you and is complying with you. Thank you. This is all I have. Thank you so much. Okay, I'll take the last two. Alo Cola, please tell us your name and where you're calling us from. Uh Honorable, good evening. Good evening. Ambassador, uh, this is David from Mongo again. David from Mongu, make your contribution. Yes, I just wanted to ask a question to Mr. Longwe. And uh I would like to say it's very, very happy and this patronic. Okay, stand up again. So I would like to congratulate him on your party. But I would like him to go beyond PFA. I would like him to look at the multipartis which we fought for. We were very young, some of us, when uh the people like uh Scotland in 1988 started calling for multipartism. We didn't even understand what the how the character of multipartism was. So I would like him to review the performance of a one-party participatory democracy and what's happening today in a multi-party system. Where is Zambia? Economically, educationally, everything, the welfare of Zambians, which is which is what which was a better governance system, with all these things is talking about which happened in the PF, which has happened in the UPND. These things even started in the MMD, but now talking about collectively the multi-party system and the one-party participatory democracy, which was a better system. Thank you. Thank you very much. Uh, for for our callers, what what we'll do is we will allow um uh our dear brother Charles Longwe to answer all the questions, then we'll release him to go, then we'll come and take your cause. So this will be the last caller in this uh uh race. We we allow uh Honorable Charles Longwe to answer the questions, and then we'll invite you to come and speak so that we can later release him. Alo caller, you are the last one in this series. Please tell us your name and where you are calling us from and make your contribution. Good evening, Ambassador Nibamkonge. Mkoewa Mungkonge. Ambassador Decha Kubadira Pondeva Tote Labalongwech Tavale Pangama Leko Zakwatanguali Pokirobu teako, shama elections, zero to a kuma elections. Rom to the landage, it's each into each other, one week myself, and a pantuland of severe chungo, president, a pungapatiavo, but open it to Valanda Challenga, Aru Sam Elections. Babekata Navy Fifth Valanda in the Kivalung, qualifakoma challenges in a clevati. Ligo to Ligo Balongashta Sunimani Tabakuntikumandokate, Bada Mukha Kuma Koti in the Pingushi, the fuming win, but uh, when the so fully baby some put to be to the dictator in a time when PFU the democracy, but n go. If put on a few pingula women and shabuino, you won't be the office when I feel like democracy. Thank you very much. The cause are so many. Let's allow Honorable Charles Longwe to answer the question when he's done and gives us a final remarks. Then we are going to invite you for you to breathe and say something about this matter. Mr. Longwe over to you. Thank you very much, um, Bassander. Uh, listening to the cross-section of uh the callers who I I relate with, I hear Zambians speaking. You see, I interact with uh cross-section of Zambians every day. And when I speak, I'm passionate about uh politics. It's because uh of people like the ones I've just heard. They are looking for a better government. Uh so I want to address in a different way, I address the issues the the callers have said, but I want to tell you something, uh fellow Zambia. Uh 1991, 1990, there about our late president, uh rest in peace, Dr. Gaunda, amended the one-party state uh arrangement and introduced uh multi-partism. Now that was done by law. That is an article four of the constitution, which at that time provided only you need to be the only political party. It was uh amended allowing for multi-partism. Now, if we recall very well, the president at that time says, Well, you are all free. You are now free to register your little parties or small parties, whatever you call them. Now, beyond that amendment to actualize multi-partism, we have not done very well. You see, Bachuruba, who was the immediate president after Wakaunda, was a tolerant person. You know, Bachruba, you could even south him and he would just laugh it off. You know, I remember those days when we were young. I think there was something happening in his own private life, and he would go on a rari and sing my own shimbe, and he just laughs on a serious matter. So he was tolerant of criticism and he had his own way. Then we had a very sensitive president, President Wanawasa come in. But one of the things your callers have been saying, Ambassador, is the shrinking uh okay, as an aspect of a shrinking democratic space, is this issue not free to express themselves. Now we see after the MMD loses power, PF comes in, and uh Sata, then Valongo, then we are where we are now. If you observe, it depends on the person who is in state house. There are those who have thick skin, you know, you have people like Varupia Banda who won't even care what Michael Sata is saying. So we have not translated that 1990 declaration of multipart. To practice. I've always argued and have said this many times that we are still under a party state mentality. And those people in government, that is the leadership or the regime at a particular time, demo like would demonstrate a certain aspect of this one party state. We are changing leaders every five years. And this is what I'm calling you to reflect. You are still under the same reign. You are just kind of like deceiving yourselves. So fundamentally, I tell you, let's look at this thing, democracy. It doesn't have to happen every five years. It happens every year, every month in these political parties. Are they practicing it? Okay, are they tolerant in UPND of divergent views? You saw a clip uh by a former MP Garen Kombo, which uh the ambassador uh aired. That's a senior member of a political party, a chairperson of uh elections the last five years. You saw what happened to him in Mazabuk. That is in UPND, by UPND members, an intra-party issue, intolerance of divergent views. It is important that we understand the linkage between the party in office and the government and the leader. And if the leader is intolerant, it spreads to the whole nation. So what's happening in the UPND where they are closed up, they can't speak. That's what's happening to the whole country. It shouldn't be like that in a multi-party democracy. Now, to a point where people who want to be independent, you know, to be an independent it means you are non-aligned to a political party. People have to follow you to a police station and beat you. It's a shame. I'm ashamed as a UPND member, even as I speak that. That's the lowest we have ever reached. Because a person who declares to be independent is a protected right under the constitution. Article 52 says if a person wants to stand as a candidate, this is how they can stand if they are independent. And so a political party has no right to interfere in that person's expression or association at that time if they have decided to delink. But you see, we have operatives in the political parties who have no understanding of what they are doing. And I can speak clearly in the UPND. You see, the other day I was listening to Mosquito arguing with uh veteran um what veteran uh winter Kabimba had said. He said when he was in PF, he tried to stand as an independent. And Winter Kamimba was against that. And so he was justifying his action now that in the UPND we can do that, and Winter shouldn't condemn that. My young friends, Mosquito, in 2011, the constitutional order was different. Read the statute. In 2016, there was an amendment which protected the rights of citizens to stand as independence. And so you can't behave the same way Winter Kabimba behaved. It was under a different constitutional order. And this is what I say that the players in the political party, the administrators of political party, they should raise the bar so that the discourse and the temperature can be lowered down. Lowered, lowered, lowered. Listen, we are now talking about uh campaigns that people are not being allowed to campaign. Look, UPND was in existence before it came into office 23 years. I don't recall, and I stand to be corrected, Ambassador. You are a person in the media. I was a member of UPND. I don't, yeah, apart from the, you know, these frackers and everything which goes on in the political party contestation, I don't remember in that period when UPND was ever stopped from uh participating in an election. They could have been hindered. But there was no systematic operation by the MMD, we survived that period. Ten years of PF, we survived that period. Why are political parties in this time, five years in office, we have stopped other political parties from participating? They are fellow citizens. And this is where I say that it's unfortunate, but the truth is you have to look at the political part, UPND, how does it practice its democracy internally? And since that's a party in power, and if you understand clearly what I'm talking about, a one-party state, it reflects in the nation. So the if there's a failure of intra-party democracy in there, there will be failure at national level. That's my position. So if I'm looking for an antidote, I'm looking at curing the issue from the party side and then on the national side to yield. So if Akainde Ishrema has failed, I can tell you he has failed. In this regard. And that's why I challenge his candidacy up to the highest court. And I don't I don't pull any punches in doing this. I yield my best to say, listen, sir, this is not what we fought for with Anderson Kambela Mazoka and know. Because we are allowed under the MMD to participate, we were allowed under PF, under difficult circumstances, and you know, we led the front against those scuders, and I was there. And I would I would have hoped that when now we are in power, we would guarantee the liberties of everyone, not to constrain them. But that is difficult for me to do. But that which I can do is challenge the intra-party process and hopefully the court will hear us. Because if you ask me whether he's democratically running the UPND, I'll tell you if I believed that, I wouldn't be in the constitutional court today. And I say this with all respect for my head of state. Maybe the only difference which I age my fellow citizens in whatever we do, let's do it without defaming one another. I'm here on this show. I love to be, you know, Ambassador, why I like to come to your show, you've invited me twice before, is I try to tell people, this is media. There was a war in the, I think they're still there between Iran and the US. You would find that on CBS, on CNN, is the Iranian foreign minister is there speaking to the American people about what Donald Trump is doing. We should be able to separate these issues and say, Charles Long, we can speak to Ambassador Mwamba, who is PF, over Zambian issues and give a context from the UPND side. And they are not in an alliance. And vice versa. And then we should exchange ideas so that we can coexist. Listen to me. Until we perfect the issue of democracy, we are still a one-party state. We should find ways of coexisting. I was telling a colleague the other day that there is this position by the Americans now on the health aid and so forth. I said, as Zambians, both in the ruling party and the opposition, should I say, as political parties, we should come up with a common position. Which we should posture toward the Americans and say, as Zambians, in relation to our resources, Donald Trump, here is how we would do it. So that it doesn't matter in August which political party actually takes over office, we know our foreign policy position as regards our resources, cuts across all political parties, and this is our common position. Can we sit down as Zambians and just discuss things in a common uh you know, should I say in our commonality? That's what we are not doing. So when people are so afraid of speaking, the only criticism I have is please, when you are on the air like this, don't defame each other. Respect Ambassador Mwamba on the other side, he's my opponent politically. He knows this. But let me not abuse him. I expect him also to treat me like that. And then we coexist. But don't pick up that phone and call Nokwamboku to Kana. Let's restrain from that. I'm not justifying those who are the operatives and doing whatever they are doing in the manner they are cramping down on this using the cyber law. But I'm just appealing to a fellow Zambians to say, don't fear cyber, just do the right thing. You know, we are a Christian nation. He says he who has done no wrong need no fear any punishment. So let's try to be civil towards each other and engage openly and don't kick about the bush. You know, I'll tell you one thing Hakainde Hilema taught me. We had a discourse somewhere, and then I was trying to go around an issue going this way. Kulandefi, he told me Charles. Don't skate around this issue. Come straight. So you don't start insulting. Be clear. We have to redeem ourselves. When we have a tyrant in office, we have the votes in August. But in our conduct, let us reduce this over excitement when we are on the phones and uh on social media insulting. That I'm against as an individual. I'm saying we can be open and honest with each other, be strong about what you believe. Uh there was an issue, I think it's uh somebody from Rome or I think it's from the Kraji. He he raised and he talks about the period when under the other administrations, people were allowed to campaign. But those under this regime, they are not uh given free reign to to participate in. I don't even understand that policy at all. I don't understand it because I come from the PND in 20 years in opposition, we were allowed. Or should I say the administrations at that time allowed expression? So I find it strange that there's a high heavy-handedness towards dissent. Now that I openly say I don't understand why they fear citizens should be free to speak as I'm speaking, and I don't know why you need extra courage to speak. Oh, I say the truth. Not innuendo. Just say the truth, stick to the issues. Thank you. Thank you. Indeed, stick to the truth. Um indeed, Charles, we stick to the truth. Let me bring you to say your last remarks so that we can allow you to leave. Then for you, the callers who are calling, I'll pick your calls. Charles will be listening, and if there is a particular question he wants to answer, I can call him or you call me and he can answer. But we allow him uh to go home safely, and our studio team also to travel safely. Let's take your last calls, Charles. Then we'll open the phone lines. You listen to the phone lines. If there's anything you would like to answer, you just call me back. Are you saying I should say the last thing, then I'll listen? Okay, I just wanted to say this in closing. Yes. Let us love our country and keep the unity of history. And let's do our best to preserve its peace. Somebody else me, whether what we are doing, we are doing on our own, and uh whether we have lawyers, you know, the consultant is uh apex court in terms of these things, and you need competence and skill to operate at that level. I don't have that particular skill. So we have gone out there to seek the help of those who have skill. You know, it costs money. Money which I don't have. So if you are to ask me, your ambassador on your show, if there are those people who feel that they want to support our cause, we have bills to pay. Correct. We have bills to pay. You can get in touch with the ambassador. I give give you this license, ambassador. That those who are willing to help us to pay lawyers, reach out to us. We need to pay lawyers to uh to articulate this issue before that bench accurately and get the desired results. Who are your lawyers? Sometimes people can just go. You'll be seeing them starting tomorrow. Oh, listen, oh, I'm inviting the media. Let me do this. Let me do this so that uh you see, because we we know when you are operating under a certain environment, uh, you remember I told some people at one time that we are paratroopers, we know how to do this thing. So tomorrow at 9, constitutional court, we have a hearing. Soon after that, my team of lawyers and I will be speaking to the media. So those who hang around the constitutional court area there, you'll be able to see the team. Some of them will appear, and that will be our our song with those guys, that team, towards the end of the and the goal of that is to entrench democracy in this country. I think we have the best brains in this country working on this to help me. Yeah, so far we've carried it as far as we can. This is now for heavy lifting, so they will they will be there. Uh tomorrow I think I'm appearing with um my good friend and brother uh Mamwe from FedGer and Company, and I think Benjamin Mwewa, they will be with me. So you hear us so those that you can support our cause, Bamba, we will come such support. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. And your last words? And your last words? My last words, like I said before, I love my country so much. And uh, I did say something about love for my country and Haka in the I was contrasting it. I was not saying it's the same. Uh that I contrast what I'm doing here is a full expression of my love for my country, and like that, we are building a better country, and I hope my elder brother understands that very clearly. And we are peaceful people, and we do not fear, but fear itself. For we are here at this time, as the Lord has allotted us this portion. So may God bless you. As Zambians, we continue to love you, but this is the only way we can express our love is to have a better tomorrow, a democratic process, which by the time we get to August. Thank you very much, thank you very much. So, before my dear brother goes, uh he has asked repeatedly for this beautiful song, and uh after the a snippet of this song, callers, I'll pick your calls. Thank you. Thanks very much. The lines are open. Let's hear from you. Caller, tell us your name and where you are calling us from. Yeah, good evening, my ambassador. Good evening. Make your contribution. Yeah, very brief. This question, um I know I'm late, but uh I wish um respond to this. Uh he's listening. Ask if he if we need to call him, we will call him on the phone. We just want him to be safe. So we've released him from the the studio, but he's listening. Thank you. Thank you. Um to start with, there was a case, presidential case which was in constitutional court. Uh ICO noted the eligible case, and we saw that case was um was uh was in the constitutional court more than three times, if I'm not mistaken. But uh the last one we saw the same court, the constitutional court ruled otherwise. Let's put that aside. The second, we saw the appointment of too many judges more than in the space of maybe one year. We have seen 90 or close to 100 judges that have been appointed to High Court. Those who were appointed from the junior court to high court are those the 40 recent ones are those who were actually would do the service or a show on behalf of uh this thing. What show are we referring to? This is a show that they sent uh people to prison without even following proper positions because others were uh wrongly judged, such as people like me and many others and those people are wrong. Are you not trying I appreciate you for are you not that trying to divide people's attention because knowing what even when it goes to to the court today, we have lost trust in this court. I find this process to be distracting this matter. One of the underground things are this man has been doing the wrong things for a long time from the time I think he would have voiced out from that. Time, but you have kept quiet all this time until today. What you are saying, I feel that you would have started a way back, building pressure on the on him. But this time around, if he's calling people to support this movement, I feel that it may not work out. Thank you. Thank you very much. The lines are open, the lines are open. Tell us your name and where you're calling us from and make your contribution. Hello, please. Hello, good evening. Good evening, uh, Mr. Mamba. Yes. Um, my my my question is actually a follow-up to to what a previous caller just said, and uh in fact, it's actually almost like a question. Um, it's a simple to see if we think you care for everything. We seem to be moving if you have a thing. Are you renewed people? Are you a renewed person yourself? Is there really another the real deal of if we're just hovering over the same thing? I'll I'll leave it here. Thank you, thank you very much. Do we need a change in the model? In the model, and the things that we're talking about are just the same things that will be we'll move a few steps and come back. Thank you. I'll leave it here. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. No, I think um, in my view, in my estimation, honorable Mr. Charles Longwe is genuine in his application. He has received threats, he has received attacks. Even now we had to negotiate. I've been trying to bring him to the studio uh for the last three, four, five days. If it was as simple as that, he would have come the first time. You what you are seeing is a lot of courage for even him to come to the studio live late in the in the day. Um the application he has brought has stated facts that the UPND brought, read it. You will see. I don't think if it be if if it's uh part of a state project, they would like to embarrass President Akainde Chima. In the manner that petition has embarrassed him, I think, in my estimation, I think he has a genuine issue and is pursuing it. That the UPND has a party constitution, and this is how it holds a general conference, and it has not held a general conference according to its statutes. So, how do you get a candidate like that and present him to Easy Z as a candidate? He has even taken this matter to the constitutional court. The issue is whether the court will rule for him or against him, and now uh like the first scholar said, President Akainda has appointed about hundred judges just in the last five years. Yes, the judiciary is part of the problem. We have a shrinking democracy where President Akainda H. Lemaz has um hijacked these institutions. But where do you want us to go? Do you want us to go to the bush? No, even that same Finnish judiciary, we have to put it on record. When one day Zambians decide, people will have to be held accountable. But you have to leave it on the record. There is something that President Ichilema himself used to say. He says, I don't think I can win cases in court, but go and report, because one day we will come for these cases. And you saw what he did. Hello, Cola, please tell us your name and where you're calling us from. Thank you, Ambassador Mamba Singyangani on the line. Daniel Mika. Thank you, Ambassador. What I have seen Barungebach, he has presented a case to us Zambians. And this case is are we going to vote for such a person who is the leader of the current um government? And if you have seen what Balungwe has said, this is a case now for us to decide to say, is this what we want or not? And from the way Valongwe and what he has presented, for me, uh I'm just going to differ with the two previous callers. Valongwe is not a person that can just come and discredit the party that is sponsoring him. What Valongwe has just done now is to present a case to us Zambians, more reason why we should turn up in large numbers and vote out this government. I submit my mwamba and God bless you. Thank you very much. The lines are so busy. Let's let's take as many calls as possible. Ambassador Mwamba, good evening. Good evening. Uh today is this is a very interesting program bringing our colleagues Charles Longwe on your platform. I'm very grateful to your ambassador. But Ambassador, I just want to take you back. Uh if you recall, in UNIP, UNIP only frozen the presidential candidate, and they allow interparty democrats to flourish into these other positions. Now, um speaking to this, I want to come back to Isaac Mwanza, who has petitioned the independent candidate. So let me start from UNIP. The UNIP only frozen is the presidential candidate, and the other position was subjected to interparty democracy. But Ambassador, if you are a new UNIP member, you cannot participate in the form of elections until you present a membership act, the renewal, every new one was a cutting mark for you to participate either from branch, section, constraints, and the district up to the MCC. Now, this also it was done by MMD. When MMD came into government, if you recall Ambassador Mwamba, there was an annual renewal of membership of MMD. Every year you have to have renewal, even your membership cards, you have to even have receipts and all the documents it is. Now, today, I want to go very quick to Isaac Mwanza. Isaac Mwanza, he has he has petitioned the so-called independent MP who have filing nomination want to stand in this election. Now, looking about the status of the political parties in this country, none of the political parties membership annually, every year. So I don't I want these things to be put to the Zambian, even to himself. On what level is Isaac Mwanza is going to prove that these were members of this political party. I'll give you a practical example. PF Kawa Gwatama membership card, they don't do, they don't do renewals. None of even in UPND they do renews. None of all these political parties they do renewals. Now, if Isaac Mwanza goes to the either High Court or Constitutional Court, says these people who have participated or who are filed in as the independent candidates, they didn't resign from their political parties. On what basis is he going to produce the document? Because Isaac Mans has to produce all the political party registers to prove that these were political party members. They did all the process of renewals, their membership, these are the registers, these are the receipts. So how is he going to prove to that? Because there is no democracy. They don't do inter-party democracy, they don't do renewals, all the constitution for these political parties. They just go there to erect a president. The remaining position are being appointed by the president. Maybe they will say, okay, they will vote for a certain grouping of maybe member of the Central Committee or member of the management committee. But when you look about UNIP and MMD, each and every position was subjected to an election. Every member who was a member of Central Committee or National Executive got a mandate from the general membership of that institution. But today, even themselves, even the court or the register of society, when they talk about these independent candidates who have stood in this election, the justification for Isaac Manza, who says these were members of these political parties, because there are people who can even apply today, who have applied today and have been adopted. They didn't even maybe qualify. Oh, our callers uh numbers cut. But we have another caller. Hello, caller, please tell us your name and where you're calling us from. Ambassador, again, David. You see, my question was uh maybe maybe maybe Mr. Longway did not understand it. The reason, maybe I should give him the reason of my question. You know, economically a multi-party system is not cheap. Kenkaunda, once he signed on the 4th of December 1990, he signed uh for Zambia to go into a multi-party system. But afterwards, in February of the following year, he was interviewed by the BBC about what he did. And he explained that it's not cheap. Multi-partism isn't cheap. And uh Zambia's economic or economic standard could not afford to go through a multi-party system. And today, even the previous scholar is talking about internal democracy, which Mr. Lombo is talking about, even uh which Mr. Isaac Manza, all these are highlights of the costs. The reason why we don't have internal multi-partism uh system, why our party, multi-party parties, the parties which are participating in this multi-party system, why they do not have internal democracy is because of the cost. It's too cheap economically to run to run a multi-party system. That's why my question again goes back to Mr. Longweach was a better governance system in Zambian's history, and I want party participatory democracy or this multi-party system, because which is which which is giving a better benefit to the Zambian people, the ordinary Zambians, which was a better governance system economically. Maybe that way you understand my question. I would like you to answer the question which was a better governance system, because the multi-party system, as much as Kaunda allowed it, he said it's a cost to the economy, and Zambia can't afford it. Can we afford it? Thank you very much, my dear brother. Thank you. Sorry, Ambassador Mwamba, I thought uh I discovered that I went offline, eh? Okay, yes. Uh what I was trying to explain, if I don't we to fretwai some militia, if let's take a Mozambia. Isaac Mwanza, I'll repeat again. Isaac Mwanza, he has taken the independent countries to the to the court of law. The justification, because in this country, we don't have interparty democrats. And two, no any political party apart from MMD. So Isaac Wanza Ngawaya Kukos Kuria, what evidence is he going to present to notify this independent candidate that they they didn't resign from their various political parties because they are not documentary, because this Isaac Wansa has to prepare the files for the invoices that these people have done all annual uh renewal being members of these political parties. And the two, uh it would be very important for that. So I thought this is a very critical issue which Mr. Charles Long has brought in in this country. UNIP only frozen the position of the president. But going down there, political democracy was being exercised. So these things are very important to bring it open to the Zambian people to know. The last one, I want to talk about the the final or Ishilocha in Kosyama Kos, Gwenya Mampezen for Chile Mbaba Secretary to the Cabinet, whether it's true or what it is. Also, let's support our brothers from southern province and western province. Let's support the Kawandes, the Rundas, the Ruvale, let's support each and every ethnic tribe in this country exercise their cousinship. That's why the went tambishing overlap into other tribes because we love it as our Zambians. This cows are bring us together. It has been existence. Maybe I don't know, maybe 200 to 150 years ago. All the corners of northern region, even suma, ta ifinish, ta itemenwe, all the staffers of set no muntu. Udo Muntuya will miss him in this country. Awemba, Chewaban, Sengava Tumbuka. Let's embrace our Zambian culture. It's our identity. Ambassador Mala, I thank you. Thank you very much. Roman and make your contribution. Yes, good evening. Good evening. Yes, uh Mukuka on the line from Chin Sari. Mr. Mukoka, make your contribution. Okay, okay. I just wanted to contribute a few words concerning the Mr. Longway. Yes, thank you. Okay, okay. Uh I just wanted to age him to say uh I think to me, every party they have what we call uh disposition measures. When a member is out of order, we have a team that look into the matters. I think to me, what is Mr. Rombo is doing is not a genuine UPD member. I've said so that uh in the in the party, in every organization, there are laws that he regulated or that is uh land the organization. So the way he has come out, it's more like uh addressing the issues of the internal part of the party to the public, whereby uh in the I'll give an example, maybe in a home, you have issues in home, then you start coming out to say, we have this issue, my wife this, my husband this, this is what Mr. Rombo is doing. So if you think that the uh in politics, the way politics around is M as church is is wrong. What is he has been explaining on the on this platform, it's more like he wants to purify or to make it clear that politics should be like uh should be learned like churches. So this is politics. I'll give you an example. If the UPND goes for convention and the president will say, okay, let the president be out of the the presidential race, who can be on the barot for the UPND? The UPND doesn't have a presidential budget, who can match with the president? To me, this person is more like he's frustrated. He's frustrated in such a way that maybe he expected something in favor, maybe he perspected the last general election. Now he hasn't been awarded anything. So it's more it's more like he's bringing out the easy uh grievances by attacking the party and the president. There is nothing now like Chefero. No, the president is wrong. You you know, Mr. Mamba, you are the PF in the PF. That's the people who are the political party for the Fayaba to the Bible, but my shoes over facing. And I'm my issues over facing. But you pin a showbacking at place in the limbi, all to ingest abate popular, Google's matching up our opposition. Now if you don't feel based on whatever you have said, the lot of weight, which is not good. And you need this print, so to say, you need this print before he sells the buttons. Thank you, my brother. Thank you. Thank you. Hello, Cola. Please tell us your name and where you are calling us from and make your contribution. Hello, Ambassador. Um how are you? This is the Muawa from Livingstone. But from Livingstone, thank you very much. Make your contribution. Yeah, thank you very much. Um first in the focus, uh what I can encourage them is that uh we must never lose hope. We are winning these elections. Come make come sunshine. So now uh first thing in the Fukulanda uh long way. Yeah, uh but first thing in the Fukulanda, it's in relation to Dr. Edgar Chagwarung. Um five vigunkawakana Edigarungu. But I'm gonna be Africa, where he says the uh Edicarungu, uh the board to Dr. Ediction will not touch dance until the truth is told. So now the guy is what we are in a case of court, having opened it. South Africa. They thought that they are they are embarrassing or or uh punishing uh the Rungu family and their supporters. Little did they know that those stories from the South African courts will be televised live. The whole world is seeing and the story of Dr. Edgar Shagwarung for sure. It's being taught. So sometimes you might do something today thinking that you are trying to punish your colleague. Then those things now start back firing on you. So I hope the people should are picking lessons from that. And then the other thing. Oh, did you stand? Yeah, uh, yeah, yes, I I I I successfully filed in nominations. Okay, which seat? Uh yeah. Uh Livingston Central. Oh, Livingston Central, who are your other opponents? There's one from UPND and uh and the other one an independent. Okay. We wish you very well, Mr. Muwa. Thank you very much. Uh uh, Livingston, Trewina. We are on the ground mobilizing the party. Okay, thank you. And the and the and there is a lot of uh uh there's a lot of um support from the Zambians. Goodwill, wonderful. They were very brave man. We are being encouraged so much. Actually, what it is, uh Abama guys, I withdraw. Okay they are not withdrawing because they want to withdraw. No. They are being enticed. Okay, and uh and a lot of money is being put on the table. So the question is if they offer you that money, what is your interest? Is it to save the people who just for you to have money? So those who who don't have who don't know what they want to do in two politics, they are they are they are they are opting for money. And I think that's how uh uh uh umpashua and to bash the main intentions because uh me and a victim, for example. I was approached and give and uh and offered quite a good dump sum of money. But my interest is not about money. My interest is one too. We are okay. That one for me, I I I said it's not applicable. So it's um it's an issue where now I'm a citizens. You know, you know, I think Zambia is not what a problem because I'm a citizens versus like civic education. Because we discover that, for example, if it if in Jimini Neki Livingstone, uh candidates. If you're living from the central uh seat, but we need to have the energy to start painting our portraits to put everywhere. Wow, why can't the population take interest and see the people that are standing? If you have to wait for a portrait and a photo, meaning that you have got no interest in the selection of leaders in the country. So for me, I'm saying that Amazambians, let them take interest to understand such that when they are making a decision, it must be an information from the point of view. Citizens must be able to organize town or meetings so that they can interview these guys who are standing. But Amma citizens, as long as what interesting for Kuvo the ruling party will take advantage. And what I've seen is that if people are following the process, someone cannot drink. But Amma Zambians, the attitude to it, especially in these years' elections, yeah, coverty, we are accepting to get money. No. If we go on like this, Mamamba, we are going to have to have a problem. The other one is that citizens, they must take ownership of this country. Okay, and that responsibility. Before we are Zambian, this time around the power is centered towards one person. And I think those were even reviewed. The other thing about Mamma is that he oh, the line is cut. The line is cut. Let me take uh a call. Hello, caller, please tell us your name and where you're calling us from and make your contribution. Hello? Hello Kola, make your contribu tell us your name and make your contribution. Yes, yes, yes. This is the Mr. Muya calling you from Lusaka. Mr. Mua from Lusaka, make your contribution. Yes, I want to thank you, Mr. Mwamba, Ambassador Mwamba. I want to thank you, Mr. Lungwe. Um if only we had people like Mr. Lungwe, who seems to make a follow-up, to make sure that institutions are very strong. Because when we we are here we have such an environment, it is an enabling environment. People like Mr. Lungwe, people like so and the people like even Makebizulu, these people they seem to be so serious with the our constitution and uh our institutions in Zambia. But if we had people like you, Mr. Longwe, I think you would be a better place. Zambia would be a better place. What I've realized is that uh there is one book. Uh the book they talk about nations are like uh just like human beings. Uh the signature, the political signature currently prevailing in Zambia should be attributed to from Akahinde himself. That's his personality. You can see you can you cannot you cannot it's like people say that uh you can get a monkey from the forest, but you never get the forest from the monkey. That is his nature. And uh people I think my fellow, my fellow uh scholars maybe might might agree with me to say that uh uh it is like he's got uh he's suffering from uh influenced complex from childhood. It's like it's an identity crisis in his life. He wants to be up uh to be accepted, approved. He wants to be, he wants to show power, he wants to do, and he's not even a courageous man, he's coward. Uh look at uh uh when we analyze the the presidents that we have from uh right from Kenet Gaunda, uh he's all a thing up to him. You can see the personality in the reader. Everyone was very happy, even myself, though I never, I never, I never I never felt for him. But when after having heard uh his speech he came from the from the what from the illustration, uh it gave me a my country, like indeed maybe we are we are now back in the line. It also gave me a question, Mark. When people put the the relief president is say of this, and the guy was not even he was not even bothered, he was even, he couldn't even maybe shut them up to say, no, no, no, no, no. He was just like that. Then I knew, but even that I knew that this one is he is is he's been suffering from the road complex from childhood. And people like that, you find that in the when they were growing, or maybe especially, I'm not trying to cascade those who have grown up without parents, but most of those people in an environment where they they are not shown love, when they grow up, they want to prove. They want to prove that indeed they can they can be accepted, indeed they are they are better. Thank you, my brother. Uh just like even today. Hello? Thank you, my brother. Let's let's take a look at even yes just like today, you uh look at Elise Warning. So when he was talking about uh uh today, he was talking about uh this youth, is it youth the chairman, national youth chairman for UPND? He was talking about uh uh uh he has made us to be like this because he understands that once you you you praise him like that, he's got a soft support for praises. And people like that are those with infraud complex and all that. People who don't have infraud complex, they want to be challenged. Just like the way I stalungwe comes forth. He's very he's very it's very particular. The way he comes out, you can even know that this one he knows what he's talking about. He's talking about institutions, he's talking about democracy, and he's he's he's he's just casting the wall the name widely. He's not talking about one party, it's how the party, the the the democracy must prevail in all the party in the intra intra intra-party, there must be democracy before even bring it forth for election. There must be democracy. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, my brother. Sorry, sorry, I have to cut you. Let me just take some more because uh a lot of calls that are waiting. We need to close. Hello, caller, please tell us your name and where you're calling us from. Uh sorry, sorry that umguta was saying that uh campaigns quite they are going on very, very well. And I want to know what to poke a little, but the only the only thing Valera and no the guardia is already so treat off your covert, not quite uh imparumes. And then the other thing also if you value that must speak a Nago Muntuga cover to must speak a fiddle. But otherwise, what is on the ground, uh I can assure the Zambians Southern province, and Southern province in the headquarters. But what I'm saying is that the support we are getting from our people is very overwhelming. And I'm very sure that MP Bakumaramba constituency. Kumaramba Tuarawi ne have MP. Because we feel we managed to field the uh Bon Savatatu. And then we also managed to field the uh 18 counselors. We've got 20 words. Butwali Kwan shook my candidates in in 18 words. And then the other thing is that uh especially alliance. I think we uh to the communumapana uh these elections we didn't prepare. We didn't prepare at all. There was communication that nominations. That was 8 15. We have to go up to 10 13 hours. Gamma candes were where if you need to know it's such a mutual a quarter one pin seven. For the counselors, it was not easy. So I just like it is one of the designs that was made by opinion to say. But otherwise, what I'm saying is that we need to make sure that whatever we are doing now and going forward is fully supported by our Zambians. Thank you very much. Let's take the more calls and then we close. Hello, caller, please tell us your name and where you're calling us from. If you have a long way, yes, it might be important, but it won't go very far. So let us talk too much about it. That that must be resolved and not be allowed. Okay, thanks so much. Thank you very much. Hello, caller, please tell us your name and where you are calling us from and make your contribution. I'll be very briefly. I forgot my one point or two. Uh member, the issue of long wait may not very it may not go anywhere. That's the truth of the matter. We have seen it. It's a it's just political again, trying to uh drift people from the main issues like I mentioned earlier on. But I would love to speak uh uh uh concurring with the previous the other caller from Livingston who uh mentioned that uh the citizens they should take interest of knowing uh their leaders indeed is right, but um I want also to emphasize that if you remember a service, being a politician who was a service to the community. I'll take you back to Kawunda's time in time of UNIPE. We remember that in our location where we were staying, you would see a yard with a flag just not a pang under power nan, a power power chairman. And the issues were resolved at that level before it goes to the police. That's how a politician was being respected. But over the years we saw some businessmen jumping from their business to politics, and this is the reason why you are able to see people without shame today. They can change goalposts at any given time. I was seeing the post of uh Peter Chanda not long ago, who was con who was saying that he he was actually shooting HH left, right, uh, and center. And today he's saying that he's supporting um UPND. So, because of that, you have us as a general public who are saying, Okay, these guys are not loyal. So, when times like this, it's a time for to uh to to remote. And if you recall, there was a time when people were to see a a member of parliament was as easy as that. But today, to see a member of parliament is only this time around of the year. So you as politicians, you have your job to do, you have to clean yourself so that the Republic can gain trust. Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay, I think I should be winding up now. Alocola, please tell us your name and where you're calling us from and make your contribution. Good evening, ambassador. Uh call me James. James, make your contribution. My comment yes, my comment is very simple. Uh, I just want to warn our candidates not to tolerate these people who are frustrating them and telling them to resign from step aside from this election. You know, uh this thing, uh, when you say you want to be ruled in politics, it's not for personal gain, but to save the people in your constituency, in your work, in your country. So when you see people desperately trying to oo you with money to show you money to say if you resign uh from contesting this election will give you so much money. Money can take you uh not very far. But the things and the influence that you are going to gather to have when you become a leader, be it counselor, MP, uh even president, is something that will take you a long way. So let them not sell their birthrights for pieces of silver because an election is something is something that some of the people from being a counselor will be able to go to all places when you know Marila Libu, Marilla Rimu, you sell your birthright. Uh everyone, our people country, wherever they are, you need to direct these people. And for the people who are saying you resign this space for that one, what is so special about the that one they want to live there? What kind of reasoning is that? And uh, sometimes I get right with some kind of reasoning from our brothers who want to see as if they are the only the alpha, the omega in elections and in the things that are happening in the country. That is a very, very big mistake. So I'm urging all our candidates countrywide to be very strong. Be strong and know what you are doing. I am there, Ambassador. Thank you very much, and uh, I think that was our last caller. Um, we have a special broadcast on uh Friday on the day that we'll mark one year of um uh Zambia sixth president's death. We will have a special program in honor of the late president on uh uh on 5th June. You can make your phone calls to come and remember the late president. That will be our special broadcast on I think on Friday. So thank you all for joining us. And we were hosting Charles Longwe, who has petitioned the courts that they should nullify the election, the nomination process of President Hakainde Ichilema because he's not qualified to stand, because he has not held a general conference and the UPND have not had regular elections in the in the uh uh in the party. So God bless you. We'll see you tomorrow.