ECL FAMILY WINS CASE

LIVE NOW WE DISCUSS THE SUPREME COURT CASE WHERE THE ECL  FAMILY HAS WON THE CASE TO THE REMAINS OF THE LATE PRESIDENT

Transcript

SPEAKER_36 9:43

How can you allow somebody who has murdered your son or your daughter and you are still mourning to come and attend the funeral and you need to speak at the funeral about how good how good your son was and you know about it, you say what you mean, what do you want to happen? And yeah, I think I can just say the whole thing somebody spoke to the guy and you know who she and how can you remember the whole 10th anniversary when you get remembered the good day and um thank you for joining me.

SPEAKER_02 12:44

Um I've moved out of station, I'm in another country, and uh so you'll not see my backdrop, and this is just an emergence broadcast. Thank you very much, and for those that have been asking and wishing us well. Well, the Lord has been gracious, the Lord has been good, and um we we express gratitude for his continued mercies on us, the provisions on us, the protection, and uh I'm glad that you're also well. So let's have this broadcast. The momentous event in South Africa where the court of um the Supreme Court of Appeal has upheld a decision of um has not upheld a decision of uh the high court, it has dismissed that decision of the high court of that judgment was misdirected. Both common and statutory law places um uh uh interest places uh emphasis on the family and on the wishes of the deceased person. And it was therefore ingenuous by the uh High Court of South Africa, the Gauteng High Court, to ruin the manner that they ruled, that um the state's interest somehow overrode the interest of the family, or because the late president was um was a head of state, former head of state to Zambia and until following the decorum, the court emphasized that the primary role of the family cannot be replaced, cannot be displaced, cannot be secondary to the interest of the deceased family, whatever position and station he held in uh in life. The late president, Zambia sixth president, was our president for uh seven years, and we need to emphasize the family has never, never said that the president should not be buried in Zambia. They've never said that the president should not be accorded state security. That's why I'm uh both alarmed and disappointed with the reaction by the state, because they still want to go back to the arguments that have been defeated in the Supreme Court. There were two judgments. There was a dissenting judgment and there was a main judgment. There were five judges, but the four judges ruled unanimously that the interest of a deceased person, the their wishes, I think can only be kept the custodian of those wishes. It's just the family or the wishes of the person who has passed on. It can never be anyone secondary. We recognize the issues around the man that was under discussion. And um uh this entire debacle was totally unnecessary. Totally unnecessary. I'll spend some time just to respond to the statement that has been issued by Mr. Morilo Kabesha State Council. The statement in itself is a bit insensitive. It um is attempting to communicate the very thing that Zambia rose against. And let me emphasize: the family has never said that they don't want the late president to lie in Zambia. They've never said that the president should be denied state protocol, burial rights, and uh and state owners in his capacity as former president. They've never said that. What was the issue? The issue was on the wishes of the late president. Whether we liked the wishes as communicated by the family, our duty very early on, the government should have accepted the wishes of the family. There was no need for this protracted legal contest that has brought so much pain, so much division, so much anger. And it has just, you know, it's what you call Pyrrhic victory. Even when you win the case, you are still hurt, you are still sore. And um it doesn't matter which side of the political divide you are on, this matter just leaves Spain. That as a country, we shouldn't have gone through what we've gone through. Because the differences were never fundamental. Let us backtrack what was the wishes of the late president. Is that look, I've had a bad relationship with you with with with honor. You can uh, you know, you can you can facilitate my burial, but you will not be present, or even if possible, it'd be a private funeral. Those were the wishes of the late president, and they were communicated very, very carefully. It became an unnecessary, heated legal contest, something we shouldn't have allowed. We should have allowed wisdom, leadership rises above emotions, and that was what we should have done. It was a slap in the face of the president to be told to stay away when you are head of state to the process. And and uh as painful as it is, is not the first one. Uh, if you look at uh the case that we cited in Zimbabwe, they had just been a coup d'etat, and the president was forced into retirement, and when he died, the family didn't want to have anything to do with MSON Munangagwa. And the hero, Hero Square, that was uh that was set aside for liberation heroes, led by President Robert Mugabe. The family said, No, you bury him in the village. And they took him to the village, he remained buried in the village until emotion settled, until people discussed, and the remains of the late president were then brought to Heroes Square. Look at Nelson Mandela. He was buried in Kunu, Cape Town, right in the bush. Even when you arrived, not not Cape Town, Eastern Cape. Even when you arrive at the nearest uh uh uh airport, you still have to make, I think, a three-hour journey by road to Kunu, where Nelson Mandela was born. That's where they laid him to rest. I've always advocated that the Embassy Park can remember our presidents without necessarily our presidents even lying there. In fact, when the emotions settle down and we look at this matter rationally, what we should do is that Embassy Park will remain a place for our presidents. Their bodies may no longer may not even be there, but their place and what are represented or mausoleum still can be at that place. And remember, that place in the manner we are going about it is very small. Soon you are going to obtain presidents, and that place will be a fool. So you create another Ember's Park in some cases, you may need to bury them elsewhere, but that still can be a remembrance, a remembrance place. We have uh opposite Embers Park, we have that uh that statue to remember the dead who participated in World War I and World War II, none of their bodies are there, but we go there, leave flowers in their honor and remember them. So even if the late presidents uh can be buried elsewhere, Embers Park can still remain a home where people can go and remember them without necessarily going to their burial site. If by by coincidence there's been no contest and the body is there, yes, then you can have both the body and the mausoleum in that place. But the two don't have to exist in one place, and uh all these facts seem to have escaped us. Uh let me just go back to to what the government has said that uh number one, the government of the Republic of Zambia, of course, has noted the judgment. Uh they are saying all they wanted was to accord a late president honor. I don't know where the problem is. You still can honor a state funeral. Doesn't mean that the state president has to be present, the head of state can be represented, he can delegate, and there are many state functions that go uh ahead without the president being present. We began to marry facts with fiction, where we kept on saying, and sometimes even respected people like Winter Kabimba or Dr. Nevis Mumba, who himself was vice president, would say would say things that were very shocking, such as that there can never be a state funeral without a president. What kind of thinking is that? A state function. Sometimes we might need to teach ordinary civics what is a state, what is government. When they say is head of state and is head of government, what do they mean? What is the difference between the country, the state, government, and nation? What is a nation? It's like we need our civics all over again. And in this debate, all these issues were exposed because people couldn't tell the difference between what is a state, what is a country, what is a nation, what is a government. They didn't seem to even understand that there were clear distinctions. A state funeral can go ahead without a president. President Edgar Lungo can be accorded all the state protocols, the gun salute without the presence of the president. You have seen presidents come to KK International Airport and will be received by what we call a minister of honor. And the minister of honor will take that head of state, and the head of state will take, you know, that guard of honor or start at the podium and you'll receive the 21 gun salute. The head of state is not even there. Yet the honors have been given to a head of state that is, or a king who is visiting our country, or whoever the president has accorded those honors, the president doesn't need to be present. The communication here that has been issued by Murilo Kabesha, the State Council, again exposes what we are talking about. In his thinking, in his narrative, this has now become a private matter. No, it doesn't mean that. That's all the wish is all about. Don't get lost in the jungle of words, in the legalese. They express wishes are exactly just narrow to that issue. And here, when um Senator McCain died, he had such a bitter relationship with uh Donald Trump. And what did he do? What did he say? What did he do? He said no. He shouldn't be. He shouldn't be present at my funeral. And Donald Trump, who was head of state, who is head of state, respected those wishes. And he chose not to. I mean an uh I'm in an area. Let me just find out if my if our volume is okay. I'm using hotel internet. It's not like uh the sterling I have at home. And I hope that uh the internet is okay, volume, picture. Let me just check quickly as we propound. I don't want to be speaking to myself, I want to speak to the country. Okay, so if the volume is okay and picture is okay, you can just do a thumbs up and tell me where you are watching us from. I just want to ensure uh because I've moved out of the country, I'm somewhere else, and um uh I I, you know, my internet that I use, Starlink, yeah, I'm using hotel internet, and sometimes it may buffer, it may not be as good as the internet that I use at home. So I was saying that uh you don't necessarily need the president to be present. The communication from Honorable Murilo Kavesha, um, and always elaboration, and I think it's also a misplacement, I'll get back to that. To assume that because the family has won this case, therefore this matter has become private. That declaration, unless it's the wishes of President Hakainde Ichilema, that declaration that this matter has become private is misdirected and misplaced. President Edgar Lungu remains former president of our country. He was president for the last seven years. He's entitled, whatever the argument has been, our people would like to mourn him and would like to mourn him in honor. Why did the family choose to bury him in South Africa? Is exactly this same issue where the where the government, in its strong view, misdirected view, felt insulted by the wishes of the late president that President Akainde Chilema should not be present at my funeral. They felt so insulted that they said, no, this will not go ahead. When the family therefore said, remember what the family said, they didn't say we want to bury him in South Africa. They qualified that. They said, we will bury him in South Africa until such a time that Zambia has a president who will accept the wishes of the late president. Then he will be, you know, his remains will be exhumed from here in South Africa and he'll be honored back home in Zambia. Because the environment created by government gave them no other choice but to make that very difficult decision, that we will bury him in South Africa. And the late president is the only one man I know who at this stage has two empty tombs, one that was dug in South Africa and one that has been dug at um uh Embers Park. And the family may choose to bury him elsewhere. Now, this is where we need to remove the emotions. We are in the midst of an election and debates are heavily contested. But let us reason together. First, let me rebut the assertions by uh Murilo Kabesha. Um he has cited the case of Levi Mwanawasa. To the young people that may not be aware of these facts is that Levi Mwanawasa had a condition, had a medical condition. He knew he would die. He issued a will, and not just a written will, a video will in 2005. Remember, he died in 2008. In that video will, one of the conditions, I think he had anticipated the doctors probably had told him that he would pass on because even an election had not come to pass in 2006. He said, My will must be broadcast on ZNBC. He probably President Levi Manawasa must have felt that there were forces around him that may not respect his wishes. He threw them to the nation of Zambia. That pleased my one of my issue number one is that let my will be read and be shown to the country. And all of us, you remember, the day the late president died, the following day, we saw the president speaking from his death. He says, by the time you watch this, I'll be dead. That was very moving, you know, very what would be the word? You can find me that word that you feel, you know. And uh the wishes were very clear. He had bought a farm, he was developing a farm in Palawana, and he said, with everything, let me lie in Palawanna. The state said no, Mr. President, you have approved. He died three years later after his uh will that he had made in 2005. Mr. President, you've approved the burial place for our president. Yes, we have the former president's benefits act of 1993 that provides for you when you are living, provides with you for car security and the place of your choice where we can build you a house. But we have not discussed where presidents will be buried. And now we have two former presidents, President Frederick Chiruba and President Dr. Kenneth David Kaounda. We have to discuss this. And cabinet began extensive discussions of where our presidents will lie, and they settled while President Lev Monawasa was alive, that Embassy Park, which is next to the Cenotaph, where we remember the dead at Cabinet office, there's that public square, small public square, there's a cenotaph where you remember the dead. It says opposite there, I think that would be the ideal place because here we remember those that died in World War I and World War II. It would just be appropriate that those national heroes again for our former presidents that they just lie next to there. So these facts were made available to the widow, you know, Mama Maureen, Manawasa, and the family. And they said we recognize the wishes of the late president. But here are the wishes of the state, and with your permission, we recognize what the late president had said. But with your permission, we wish that the president lie at Embass Park. There was wide consultation and the family agreed with the state. The underlying word there is agreed with the state. And the late president was buried at Embass Park. Levin Wanawasa was the first president to be put at Embass Park, despite his express wishes to be put in Palawana in uh uh Lusaka East. Let's come to the issue of the late president. The late president there was not much contest other than his wish for a post mortem. For people that may not know, the late president was involved in a motorbike accident in 1972 when he was SETU president, many, many decades before, 1972, and he had broken bone and broken femur and was admitted in hospital. And you know, I don't know what feelings that gave him. So he said, and he he didn't want his body to undergo any form of mutilation or any form of cutting up. I personally experienced that because when the late president, President Frederick Chuluba was unwell in 2005, he had been unwell from 2003. But when it became critical 2006, we take him to hospital in South Africa. The professors that were looking at him, who were also doctors for President Tavombeki and Nelson Mandela, the same doctors told him, Mr. President, your heart is unwell. A heart is just a muscle, but your heart is not performing very well. And is so poorly performing that we are surprised that you are still alive, still vibrant. And I was there with the late president Justin Kangwan, with the late president uh with the later, you know, uh his spouse Mamarijina uh uh Chfunda uh Chiluba. And they said, Mr. President, the solution we can give you is a new heart. And we began we begin exploring for a match for your heart. Three days later they came that they had found a new heart for the late president in Cape Town, where in Johansbeck, he was in ICU in Johannesburg. And when that for me, I was doing the administration, I even they even told me uh how much it should cost. I even communicated to uh secretary to cabinet at the time. But Dr. Chuluwa refused. He said I will not be allowed, I will not allow my heart to be cut or to be opened or to undergo any operation. And he was um he was very insistent. But the doctor said, that's the ultimate solution. You need a new heart, and we found it, and your government is willing to pay. Dr. Chulub refused that heart. He says, number one, I don't want my body to be cut up. Number two, the heart means a lot to me. I'm a Christian, I'm a you know a Bible-believing, uh faith Christian, and I will not allow my heart. I will not wear another man's heart. Those were his words to the professors. So the professors were very shocked. So they then you know did an evaluation. When he got better after three months, he came and laid out a treatment plan. They said, we can keep you for the next five years if we go under this regiment. But after five years, you have to make a decision whether you will need a new heart, whether you will need uh you may need this solution. And the treatment was going very well. Dr. Chulubak recovered. By 2008, his heart was optimally operating. But by 2010, the deterioration became rapid. We went to South Africa, I remember that day in April 2010. And the doctors gave us the bad news. Mr. President, remember five years ago, you've done so well the last five years. But remember our diagnosis in 2006 that we could only manage you for five years. That day has come, Mr. President. Unfortunately, we have to operate on you for two reasons. Short term, we give you what is called a pacemaker to support your heart. Two, there is an entirely new heart available for you once again if you decide. In fact, the issue of pacemaker also even rose in the well, I'm discussing it because it also became an issue in the courts of law where a decision, again, even by the Zambian doctors, arrived at the same issue that the late president required a pacemaker. Again, the president refused a pacemaker and uh and the heart transplant. That was in 2010. Many people remember after that we came from South Africa, he went to TB Josha, Nigeria, he came back, you know, the diagnosis remained. And of course, then you are aware that six months later we lost the president. Many people may not be aware of these facts, but I've laid them out in my draft book that I had done. I haven't published it. So, was there any contest around the late president Frederick Chulaware to be buried now? The only issue was the issue of postmortem. Remember, the late president died at his house at home. And when that issue, which is law in our country, anyone who dies outside hospital premises requires that they undergo through a postmortem. And the the former first lady, I mean the former um the spouse, Madame Regina Chilowa, she needed to sign the document. So I was just frantically called by Dr. Justin Kangwa that Warek Fuayamung and they have to sign these issues for the postmortem. I said it didn't click for me. I said, yeah, we can, why not? Let the postmortem be carried out. No, you've been called because you are witness to what he used to say about these issues of cutting his board. He said, Oh my god. So I said, No, no, I'm aware about from 1972 from his first accident, a motorbike. He used to be a motorbike enthusiast, but he stopped after that 1972 accident. And the proposal for his heart transplant or pacemaker, and how he refused to be cut up. He had issues when there were issues that arose of kidney, there was also supposed to be a minor procedure. Again, he refused. I said I can testify or I can um affirm on the issues of his sacredness of his body that he held it intact. The only time he allowed anything to be done to him was just a catheter in 1972, when he was in that motorbike accident, and he would say about it himself. So the fact the government then chose to respect those wishes. A postmodium was not carried on the late president. Because of his own personal wishes, and I was there and Dr. Justin Kango at the time to affirm how Dr. Chluba held the sacredness of his own body. Okay, let's come to Dr. Kaounda. Dr. Kaounda's wishes were that he lies in Shambalakale. In fact, when Betty Kaunda died, the former first lady, when she died, I was privileged to have been permanent secretary in um in northern and muchinga, and we just the president Michael Sata attached me to divide Muchinga and Northern Province. I was a new PS, Freedom Schaz was my minister. So Muchinga was still under me where Shambalakale is in Chinsali, a beautiful house at a hill, peaceful, serene, forested area. And you are aware that from 1991, when Dr. Chuluwa, when Dr. Kaunda lost elections, he decided to go to Shambalakale. But over the period from the time he left Shambal Akale in 1953, he left with his dear brother Simon Mwanza Kapwepe. They were family friends. Their wives were family friends. But because of power and the difficulties and challenges that you know, that by 1968, Kaunda and Kapwe had fallen out. By 1970, you know, Kapwepe had even left government, formed his own party, and was no longer vice president. By 1973, there was now a one-party state. By 1978, when Kapwepwe and Darum Wangangumbula tried to challenge Dr. Kaunda because it was now a one-party state. Kapwepwe was even beaten in Kamuala by Unip thirds. They were called vigilantes at the time. All because he had expressed his wish to challenge Dr. Kaunda at an upcoming UNIP conference that was coming up at Murungoshi, Rock of Authority in Kabwe. And some cadres met him in Kamuala and they beat him. Two years later, he died in Kaluloshi. And Mulenga Kapwepe has narrated this story how they removed the casket that Kapwepe was in, and how they even removed Dr. Kaunda from speaking at the funeral because the expressed wishes of the family was that Dr. Kaunda should not speak at that funeral. He didn't speak in 1980. Ten years later, when he lost power, the people that had built the tunnels, the people that had done most of the buildings in Lusaka, the Yugoslavians, they had also done him this retirement beautiful home called Shambalakari. Those are national monuments we should keep. So Dr. Kaunda's wishes was that he should lie there. So I was permanent secretary and I was privileged to the history because Basata called me Urique, and I was actually in Lusaka that uh that day. He says Kavien Nombarini. So PS Kamanga, who was permanent secretary, works and supply, myself, and I think uh Charles Panja just been appointed for the new province, but it was still under me. So they were given a plan to come and prepare where Betty would lie because Dr. Kaunda's wishes were that he should lie at Shambalakale. So we flew there. But when you backtrack in 1991, when Dr. Kaunda lost elections and he tried to come to Shambalakale in Chinsali, there was great hostility at Walewe Pusha. Munonko Ariqwe. Because remember when they left in 1953, it was Kapwepwe and Kaounda. So then when Kaunda tried to go back alone, I want to wale. So Dr. Kaunda in the end never went to Shambalakale. But I think his wishes were that he should lie in Shambalakali. So I went with P. S. Kamanga and Spange and we began to prepare Shambalakali. It's an odd beautiful place, but a bit run down. So we had to ensure that his power back, Zesko came, everyone, the entire system of government, we descended on Shambalakali to ensure that water was there, electricity was there, and we had to pave the road because Yabako away from Chinsali town or any nearby place. So while we're doing that, we just read in the newspaper. In fact, the president called me and said, Yo wakanabatuabetulai. at the new place where we are building uh uh we we we've built the Dr. Kaunda the house it has just become ready so we had to demobilize from from uh uh uh uh uh from Shambalakali Chinsali and come to Lusaka and Bama Betty lay at the farm but remember the wishes of the late president Dr. Kaunda was that he should lie next to Betty so when he died ten years later in 2020 2020 or 2021 uh Kaweche said the wishes of the president that he should lie next to each other and Kaweche was having difficulties in having and expressing those wishes for the late president that he appointed Robert Smeza Sangwa John Sangwa Smeza Sangha associate that they should pursue those wishes and they took out a judicial review that the late president Dr. Kaunda should be buried next to where Betty lies and they sought an injunction a matter that this judgment in South Africa has extensively discussed because they have differentiated all these cases from the Edgar Lungu case so the injunction was denied and we saw the following day that Panji held a press conference with the rest of the family members and Panjikawunda is the firstborn you know Panjikaunda he said as a family meaning Kaweche in the family when they probably took a vote was defeated Panji Ambassador Panji now told the nation in a national address that we recognize the wishes of the late president but we have agreed with the decision of the state and we will bury the late president here at Embassy Park why Kavesha again is totally misdirected with this matter is that that matter never went to trial to test the facts what Kaweche lost was an injunction to restrain the state from proceeding with the burial the judge looked at the fresh facts Panji and the rest of the family members had agreed and the injunction the state wished to proceed in his estimation was that the burial could proceed and then the two the three parties the state some family members of Dr. Kaounda and Kawechi then could come and argue before court that matter has never been argued. So again I have seen the state misdirect the people of Zambia mislead them that the Kaunda case is a testament case to use in the Edgar Lungo as you've heard the facts there the family agreed Kaweche could not have agreed what Kaweche lost in in the High Court was not the case he lodged he was given permission as I call it leave to conduct a judicial review over the decision of the Secretary to Cabinet to bury Dr. Kaunda at Embassy Park. And number two he wanted an injunction to restrain the state from proceeding with that burial until these facts were determined the judge said no the injunction no but the main case can proceed to trial that case never proceeded to trial so it has been a bit dishonest by the state to continue using that case that the Kaunda case the wishes of the state proceeded Edgar Lungo was president no the final facts a scrutiny of those facts would demonstrate that first the family agreed in Punch Kaunda. Number two what Kaweche lost was an injunction a restraining order from the state going ahead with the burial number three is that that case has never been determined I think those final facts are very very important when Michael Sutter died I think there was no contest the only issue was that the the the the church service could not take place at Anglican Cathedral there was a special private there was a family mass in his honor that was held at St. Ignatius and the main mass was taken to uh Hero Stadium if you remember but the burial took place at Embers Park with President Michael Satta there was no issue with the case of Edgar Lungo it was just that niggling and nibbling issue that President Nakainde Hilema may not be present or should keep away from this process. They didn't say the state should keep away I think for me as I conclude my views and I invite your views is that the late president Edgar can still be given state honors the late president everyone's wishes is that he should lie in Zambia. The wishes of all Zambians is that we should allow the president to lie in peace. The wishes of the family is that they need to honor the wishes of the late president we've seen during the emotions especially people that should guide us like Dr. Nevas Mumba abuse their positions you know state that you can't preach hatred in life and in death present that these controversies as a result of the obstinacy by the family I think there's no need to insult the family the family is just carrying out their wishes and if this government had better negotiators probably probably will not be where we are first you send Enoch Kavindele who has been insulting the late president in death and in life Neva Smumba himself who should be our elder statesman former vice president in the absence of the president Neva Smumba Mamainongawina Enoch Kavindele these are the elders we have in the absence of the former president Enoch Kavindele and Neva Smumba have not conducted themselves well to the extent that they can be received by both parties. For me it is my prayer that elders in our country must begin to rise above partisan issues so that when we have a crisis like this, we will have a figure of figures we can run to to pacify both in this case President in this case the family of the late president but such personalities are clearly missing in our country. And the role of the church has also not helped matters because we are so polarized so divided the disunity in church everywhere else the politics have taken center stage and we are failing to have personalities that can harmonize a national crisis like this. Does the late president need to lie in South Africa? In my view no what the court has given is direction and adva and and orders of the court is that the family should be allowed to bury the president mourn and bury him wherever he can be buried wherever the family will wish so they've been given a blanket approval to bury the late president wherever they wish to bury him. What would we all wish is that the late president must be buried in Zambia. That the late president must be given honors the family will resort to a private funeral private burial private everything if the state is not willing to honor the wishes of the late president so here we shouldn't practice anger emotions it is time to practice wisdom it is time to allow the late president light to rest it is time that we stop dishonoring the dead it is time that we respect the widow and the orphans it is time that we go back to who we are as a people and resolve crisis like this in a civil in a civil manner where there is no loser loser and there's no winner winner. No one can win or lose over death no one can win over the issues of death we all will just stand loose we'll just lose all of us in this process if we don't handle it very well. So I would call upon the president just to respect the wishes of the late his predecessor is privileged that is the only you know literally surviving president and we don't have a former president the best he can do is to ensure that we put behind the mistakes that have been made so far and we allow the late president to be given a dignified burial mourning and burial the statement by Murilo Kabesha is irresponsible to assume that now this is a private matter the court didn't say it's a private matter. The court is saying respect the wishes of the family that's all it says the court is saying the primacy of a deceased person lie with the family. The interest comes first not state or any other interest that's all the court is saying so the misinterpretation of that judgment again is for people that have taken this as a legal contest mpakaine unguine navalusa and sometimes the media have not played the good role because we have pitted this as a legal contesteka wa wina mwabaseka or and vice versa no this is not a legal contest we have a man who is a father who's a grandfather who's a husband who was an uncle and who was a leader to all of us who was our president I think let us resolve this matter in in a good way let me invite uh uh uh you to to uh to this broadcast let me hear your views let me switch on my phone so that we can hear from you the party friends and all so I only lamented that why should you be stripping me of these things and then pushing me and saying no we want to protect you no uh it's the demeaning of the president to be to be going without this or that I I don't need you you don't need me so I was very clear I don't think I should have you following you this minute I think this minute I wouldn't go to change somebody goes into change I think dear viewers you can make your call on the number that you know 0973 078082 um let's hear from you what is your view about this matter uh there's an opportunity that has risen that we can put the late president to rest that we can put closure to this uh we have turned this into a circus and the region the the world is laughing at us and when the region and can you know the rest of the world are laughing at us it's our president who who is our figurehead who then is put to ridicule i understand when he goes to meetings of fellow heads of state um uh what probably they said to him you know uh caller please tell us your name and where you're calling us from ambassador good uh evening um uh mkc calling you from picture mk make a contribution in today's development yeah uh it's a leaf again it's a pity like you have actually have low to the even after this global imbalance movement there are still a little ongoing algorithm twisting the issue you know from the onset of this matter also there is no even need to compare the total issue with the issue is about two different things here one was thought that the offset the doesn't look at all place the other one is seeking process of something out of thought what do you do I was really confused from the onset ambassador to say I was confused even people putting up all those arguments I was looking how do you because the two are very different there was not even looking for any reason for what is the people we have been for you we can for us to say that it's no law that does be we have no embedding we are just thinking that we don't have a law not even that is how we should be the form of state so which law we have been pushing to the South African course how imbalance we have from things just local here you know and here we have people even say no the candidates are changed tune they say now seriously how can we degrade ourselves to such levels to such levels yeah thank you at least thank you mk the phones the phones are ringing the phones are ringing people want to communicate again thank you hello caller please tell us your name and where you're calling us from and make your contribution at least it was stressed over this issue for me said this morning when I woke up I was telling one of my wakers in the window to watch in order you you are going to see you look for the first time you might have to be very leaving at moments have you seen that your worry has been overcome but you know you have been a diplomat like me I don't know how many phone calls you have received from the diplomats you are working with this is a global as the previous scholars said embarrassment we have been embarrassed as a nation to put a nail on the group on the coffee interview what I'm pleading with you on your podcast so that I say Lord we know that judgment piece by piece when they were comparing the South African court has refused to accept that there was no litigation so they can't even compare that she shouldn't even try that will not be the first former president to be buried outside the country it reminds me of Kwame Kuruma Kwame Kuruma was buried in Congo his remains were just taken after twenty years that's when the body was moved so there's nothing strange whichever country because whichever country is going to be buried the septism be buried so that is so resting peace there's so only resting the balancer dance to dance to I'm so resting peace.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:18

So I'm pleading that you bring a lawyer before the propaganda that judgment page by age thank you very much you already have another caller thank you mama mumbipiri alokola please tell us your name and where you're calling us from and make your contribution uh good evening ambassador good evening thank you calling you from Slovenia my dear sister you and I have been on this case we've cried we have mourned we have screamed we are here today let me hear your views yes ambassador it's uh it's such a relief to he to hear that finally uh president etalung who gets has gotten the justice this is really really a big relief I guess not only to me but to all well meaning Zambians that really wanted to see that if you get the justice so contribution Yanji I heard you say uh it would be okay if uh president uh lungu could be brought home uh and the influence respect the wishes of the family even as the court has uh ordered but uh the truth of the matter is that info cannot be trusted influence cannot be trusted because if you can think a person like Zoongu who is a competitor and putting Behind bars, what can stop him from taking over the funeral once the body arrives in Zambia? Because of this mistrust, I would suggest that the family go by what they had planned earlier. What did they plan? They had planned to say, since HS did not want to respect the wishes of the deceased, they were going to have him buried there in South Africa. And at the right time, when the environment is not hostile anymore, then they were going to bring his body back home. So everybody wants to have Isel buried back home in his homeland, but not when HH is still president of Zambia. I personally would suggest that let the Lungu family go ahead and bury South Africa. If the environment there would be hostile, I guess there are other countries where ECO could be buried. ICO was respected and he had friends. But bringing him to Zambia whilst HH is still there, I think it would be a bad, bad idea. Because HH cannot be trusted. HH cannot be trusted. Look at even the way uh uh Baba Kavesha has explained his judgment. What he's telling lies there, he's talking of the Kaunda case, he's talking of uh the government wanting to honor the wishes of the family, and he wants to create a narrative like the family refused the state funeral. The family never refused the state funeral. All the family was asking for was dignity. All the family was asking for was that the wishes of the deceased be respected. But already uh Mr. Kavesha started uh changing the narrative here. He wants to create a uh a narrative like the Lungo family refused anything to do with the government. No, the Lungo family did not refuse that ECL be given a state funeral. What they were uncomfortable with or what they refused was that HH should preside over the funeral of ECL or be anywhere near his remains. But they want to, but therefore we start twisting information. And on BBC, Mr. Gaussetor, they lie. And we have him as the attorney general. So if he can lie on BBC, what guarantee do we have that when they bring the body, HH will not change his mind and do something else? We'll just say no. And HH is capable of doing that. He cannot be trusted. We trusted him by giving him power. What has he done? He has abrogated the constitution with impunity. This is not a man we can trust. Today he says this, tomorrow he says the other thing. I, for one, I would request Africa, and South Africa hostility somewhere else, as long as the babalete. This is the sole reason we we we we we we this is the sole reason iso has clocked one year without being buried. It's because the change wanted to preside over the funeral. Because if it were like that, and they want to create an impression like HS didn't want even to come over the funeral. We saw that leaked program and they don't want to talk about this. We saw that leaked program where HH was everywhere. They said no, HH will be the first one to do body viewing. No, HH will see the body for 40 minutes. It's there, it's in the public domain. But they want to behave as if Zambians don't think, as if Zambians cannot read. So in a wangwambapal wandifi, gachari mumakayandi. But nutachi mumakayandi putina lumbafi okay to lupwan, she'll coffee in gotwala, but wale kumbi. Isia will still come back home.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:40

No, in my view in my view, let's put pressure anyway. I'll I'll state my views. Uh Katie Singoma, you've done very well to express yourself, my dear sister, and you speak from the love of your heart. Uh, let me let me allow other callers. Uh uh, I may get back to you. Okay, so uh hello caller, please tell us your name and where you're calling us from.

SPEAKER_19 1:11:04

Hello, good evening, Rashley.

SPEAKER_21 1:11:39

Twenty bambiku backgrounds, bana lana kuchina chimbi, kamuku mafuma. Twenty senna kutiba kwamba, ukila ti alana josefaba wwananani. Mukakulongamaf bayande, mukaseende, mkale. Abachika, mama umana lungulama no rupua. Na ba sha sha la batwe fimse, ekatekua kakatokamu. Akainde kanuakangwen, take kataka kasu mame no muchintu, kalekaku. Nishide chintupakti susuki emo inwena ilcha nakunomuf, nangunefupa. Udu muntu ngu chechina machala echabulila. So, na mwa mwana ifima shita korrect ama followasiya uba yu p nd. Balifina lisa kenelacha katu mbikalisa ni chachin to chali mpapucha. U muntu mku umufia shinaba kashinabana, kunanda nasha, a mfia diamashwa ketum bikalaisa, ne tumushi ya kuniba presdainde, tetuba bachite address. Ubeseve malandi kuchalokti nabusa male lande file matibu kanda me na twi ba eek. Nabali landa tu lelanda pamubi wama late president musa lwam sambuyo taturi na kuifu, a ya paeka. Even if in his heart maybe in agreement with them, but famanuwa la kuchifia kufesa special ni noksu akubantu. Kufuma no kutila wish teme mafiu kumkanishan sile landa. So mama yo manalungu na manupua shikenu kwesam busha uteko wana mi pea. Nanwi chalwe chala mi te chala temma chay tumenba lungu chil seniu shikuno. Katu viri shen yuko queen ehch pigumani sh wili nanda ji u shkuumo uilesa wwa wenge na makana. No wishkuumo naeshkuamakanana makana. Ya bango u skuumu. A day is like a thousand years before the lord. And a thousand years are like a day before the same lord. Em kuti la sa kuta fing fi sixana pakashta kanon. Twasha sha la nfuei, pocha putukila niap. No me siashala ko. Twibu tukila fihofina ineshta tu yu telefesa. Ami yafu kita plani mumikima uklandati tuwala shikuku. Ukuila ta kuzan kifeso mysana mtekenj chima immediatlichum safka p kucheva sausage airport. If anala landanumba. Airport feo so kafikiro mli umimo mubiruaba lungu. First and foremost mufiro kuka. If you feelze a pitefia ma post mwile anga imbela yaba yaba akainde. Frande tiaba banga kanwa nabeno yanke ya. Katamunich kwika ya nabuti, chu kwika chidila. U muntu stat richa bantu bananko wino. Muninglo kumuchinika mingoko kumutalusha kumpenaku chin shpanka pupale pti naimokuba yukumu leya, so that your peace is your peace. Abanka ba shinga timuabantuwa ba chindika. Uuntuwa leva peluamba wwaku ba linda nga gari nkombo. Ba samu nyunga. Feba m nyungga bam susena bam leto wani na fimbi na fimbi. Watimu muntu bay demukui shapam sebo. Balungu ba liba fwa shakale kuliba kainde. Baliba fwa shakali, uko kulu kudimulunga, inichiteleaba, a kainde fidefia kuli mulunga, e kuamba kwa kulenka chumba ba lunguba kalipaku, muntu shaku tnu kalibo kyaf nyye panji, asuka kalipaku, pakule kresha, e se areati emilandu, emilan duba mobikila, yasika ntuaninko keta lane, awita pali mpia, oh na ni kudempia shandi, numba bakaka kukuya, ukupoka poka u tuma passport tuabatu, emuri mobayangusha. No, mwebale takubata, takunoko nbabiken so kumalavika. Engafiku kunafimbi na findi wosenetuwali katizi watuali papa. Bati pano chafika, chyangku kakakolesa a pindrula. Nebalpepa akupe penina kabizi. Ba mywana lungo neba nano lupel barasha decide ifale foya. Abantu kosele nyukuba kosekisha mito. Shull a pindrufintu. Wingbashta, namkashta kanono. Equalanda kwanti mkua ino thank very much.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:54

Thank you very much. Hello, cola. Please tell us your name and where you are calling us from and make your contribution.

SPEAKER_15 1:16:01

Thank you very much. Um I'm anonymous, I'm calling you from Sanazambia.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:06

Anonymous, make your contribution.

SPEAKER_15 1:16:10

Um tragic. It's a very motive issue. It's tragic because when you remember this episode, it's like everybody is exciting. Very difficult to digest. I remember any stranded. I think on a border. Stranding. Stranding. Zambia should never reach such a stage. There was no need for Zambia to travel this place. He doesn't listen to anybody. There is no saying person who can go and take a widow. This case was one plus one. One plus one righteousness and the justice and the foundation of this one. Who never forsake a widow? And all of us live. That woman is strong. This man has brought him an immediate only nation of Zambia. Zambia is no longer known the way it used to be. Look at even the foreign police. No one knows what Zambia stands for. No. Is this issue where over years and months you fail to buy your former president? You go ahead even in death to punish the man. You punish him, you flew to the pain on him when he was alive. Now that he is dead, you still go ahead to flee the pain. Well, I want to agree with everybody. Appealing to you, Am I heard what Amaya Mumipidi has said, and everybody. There's an evil spirit right now in the nation of Zambia. There's this wind of evil, satanic spirit in the nation of Zambia. You can't bring Eddie Galungu to come and bury when H H is still present in this country. Let Eddie Galungu be buried in South Africa and they leave briefly for the family. When this man is taken out of state house, this evil spirit that has engulfed this country. When it is out, we all stand up.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:18

Thank you, Anonymous. Yeah, thank you, Anonymous. Hello, caller. Please tell us your name and where you are calling us from and make your contribution.

unknown 1:19:27

Dr.

SPEAKER_13 1:19:28

K from Montana.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:29

Dr. K from Montana, make your contribution.

SPEAKER_13 1:20:38

So anyway, three lo chapamons. And he had a chance to do it in his death. Because there was no way you could fight him when he was alive. So if you had.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:07

Thank you, Bashmana. Thank you so much. Now for Bashmala Nam Landa Wino. There are so many people that want to call. Let's just get quickly some calls to Fabio Bari Landa. Please tell us your name and where you're calling us from and make your contribution.

SPEAKER_14 1:24:24

Greetings, Ambassador John Mamu.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:32

But Ambassador Shishkumuchi, no the other uh program you held in the paper have traveled many, many hours away from home. It's just a very difficult period. But the Lord is keeping us and we are well.

SPEAKER_14 1:25:26

Doesn't prioritize national interest, national image, or national reputation. Yes. After Batuba Pishamuta Pisha Pishamung, very quiet for two years. After Babachtabu, he went he was quiet for two years. And then one of the things he said when he came back into active politics, one of the things he said during one of the interviews, there are clips for social media, he said, the only way we can reconcile with this uh gentleman who is the president now is for him to restore democratic practices in this country by one, letting go of my political party. Because apart from persecuting me and my family, he's also trying to destroy my political party. They were trying to do that. And I want to see hypocrisy, plain hypocrisy. After all that which happened, trying to uh Ukulabachita punish through his family and himself. Then including his political party, trying to destabilize it, no beyond. But I never PF ever want to rebel against no, but they are even with them. After the only living former head of state popular, you know, to meet some of China from different parts of the world class feed. At what happened with your former head of state. No bangar son a mumuno. If a ban to go to my bones, what my bones, my bones. If bones could not chinena. But could you co come? You have chosen wash, no boasma kuchina. If you have my elections, yeah, Palamina. A matrix. What do they care about the country? A person who cares about a whole nation cannot subject the country to the embarrassment to a fuma to a pitamo. Oh moon to what for seven years. Seven years. Surely the we do. Now we do. First former for my friend, first lady. Mmoka seat. Thank you, Ambassador.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:13

Thank you very much. There are so many calls. Be patient for those calling you. For those calling us who attend to you, be patient. Hello, Cola. Please tell us your name and where you're calling us from. Yo, my team. Mkwai, Mamma T, make your contribution.

SPEAKER_21 1:29:34

Mkwai na tote. Ma Ambassada, uh. You know, Gasadi kunu kuzambia. Gabachiranda tio, amakatazi baba pif. No mba ifwa kunu kuzambia, tuadi munokwebati ababa and tutabadi feya. Bafintufio se fi atike. No ba judgmentyo. Ba ipangi la kusaus Afrika. Ba tu mula ndua kana mfuana. Umula ndua kanu kuwa hambu bambi. Itadingku kuwa titufki panu putufikide. We were not supposed to reach this far. No, it wasn't even necessary. But because someone somewhere was very stubborn. Tarefuya wokunfuira, if every fwa. It was a very straightforward case. You never wanted him, you never cared for him. He was supposed to go for treatment. You stopped him from seeking medical care from outside. Now go nimwe. What you saying that was to make up a mumbi. I was treated in that manner. I see I was treated badly. Kamecha cannot compare situation nearby key na situation nearby wawi. Ma kewa difion safe if you're picking all along. May I make a grind that kumiago? Fion safe your mind. What an embarrassment to the former head of state. Ma la makofion safe. I tell you, Patala. Zemboama doctors, Marikana emova government. Malando goebati barungu woke and a lawfian piashantifioza Marie cannot. But you refer to mbit refi at a dignified funeral. We quiso tako. Like my sisters have said, those who called the area to say balungashik South Africa nainamu in support.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:13

Thank you. Make your contribution.

SPEAKER_08 1:32:34

Good evening, Your Excellency.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:36

Good evening.

SPEAKER_08 1:32:37

My name is your excellency calling from Lusaka.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:41

My dear brother, make your contribution.

SPEAKER_08 1:32:44

Thank you, Excellency. And as a country, uh, we have a job to rebuild our image. Because image Zambia equity number internationally. For the past five years, I think the image is extremely bad. And uh I think it will take upon every Zambian to ensure that we rebuild the image and the reputation that this country has ever had. Then for every former president was Edgar Sagorung. Your Excellency President Vesua Edgar. If we have family, I want to support us, development, better development, good family, we're at the Baby Momtima, President Visuality, Kungaro Susapamo. Yeah, quite an international excellency. It is going to be waste. I went to Bala to Monacha and Kevati Muneni Moviwa former President Babu, foreign lands. Your Excellency, if we had to keep switch as Lombafi, Uba Mawesukovati, Vale, Tata Savaru Chata Pamu. Kuti Raffin Watchwahe Buddy. If I put Fewa Navu, Fweva de Mumum Zambia, I put to a Temo, movie Sware Takono Chalo Chesuchazambia, or to Salo Chapamo, Tava Neswad Magnuma Mumishumu, Namayas Mumbiumu, Basa Kwata Ukinda Kwembadi, Wevatosha Chapamo, Abova Kateka Vesu, Ba Etika Chagorungo. Excellence by etiquetagorungo, the one president Zambia. I believe a fintua womba, na noba to chili to letela. The fintub my excellence, nanomba to chili tule mona. So to fio columba fashivesu, quewa atti qua natchika defisuma. Nomba weshe mumtima wobetu mobidiwa presidentumai gasagorumbu. It wasar research Pamu excellence, not excellence.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:01

Thank you very much. Alocora, please tell us your name and where you're calling us from and make your contribution.

SPEAKER_29 1:36:09

Anonymous.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:12

Anonymous, make your contribution.

SPEAKER_29 1:36:42

I know I can't. I know I can't. I mean, government thing to them young people.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:42

Thank you very much. Hello, Cola. Please tell us your name and where you are calling us from and make your contribution.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:48

Hello, and Tamquai.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:28

Hello Cola, please tell us your name and where you're coding as from and make your contribution.

SPEAKER_37 1:39:38

Pantwifichava inecha se kiramu nagua no kubule iriashufo yri ba chinja. Pant family taya taraikanapo. Nabuwa miva kumfuwa le mfuako, wa family taba tara bakanapo, ukshikawa rungu, muzambia, io festi pointi taba kanapo na mgunipa no no. Famili ya ji nagiro kuwa tifa ta irefuya. Niwa aka inde ichire ma ukupera umuchi insi wa rungu mumfuwa. Ukuya randa pachiru na muleranda pachiru, kuwa kuranjiro muntu ifisuma, na chakweva tibami eva, na muniku manda chao na imwandenipu, murambu kukta sha uriomuntu. Mechintuba kene. Eulunbawuva kavesha. If you wa vepubufia chavina zambia, valifua kweva tibarungu, babashi kire kuzambia wushe family, ya likene po tabashi kire kuzambia, family ya kene u kweva chi ba president tava lipo, taba fui ba sangwa kuchidiro. E point numba one. Numba ni shtaba shi timo kwewachi, aba wantuna bakanya wa presidentuksi sanga kuchidiro. Ngatuali mwaku kwa chia pangako amano. Numba wabutu keliashi, ba muriashi mbiubalefu abantuba pingule, fi shidipu familita kanapuna munipa no. Nomba ngunaba me nama chestuwa kwa danabun samai od jaz. Mi ishi ba fili woku kutu ku kukuranda naba echi chamarandanaba eche. Ilenga nandanabenanganali pusha tu numba mi ishi mwale kira ukusumina fami dofuya miyewa tamfile mwa sangwa kuchidiro. Uro mbi kwoshen yonon de yi pusha. Pantu fami di ta evepova govementi mwwa govment mui mwitta kuefion se pachidiro. Ya eve muntu mwetafu dia sangwa pu. Numba ya ma expense. Pamulan dua muntumu pia shia charu sha u no pani ba nif shinke fiakwebati family ya ken yo muntu muno sangwa ku muna nkane pachidiro chaba isieo. Na papi n family, uti nafiro kure dia pantu, uyomuntu ena fona fiasangwa ku mbiktia wum fiamakaya kwe. Uuno pokubana fenali nifiambiri. Familiali pere shokwatiana leta ichi no ku shika yapena programishil mfakase wokabwe umwakanya emba na sanguaku. Family tena ndire tona shika kunu. Abantufu maba kidia. Famili tenan direkt to la shikakuno. Ya ishile ngat kanish tatuiseku. After family banda tatu baiseku. Urima umba kanyo ksangwa kuna samaskati, kanishikimokuru shakuapua. Uma family numba stashani bama sasashai n kuzambia. Uma presidentama stena namo se finisha woneumu. Uku shakuapua. Numba ma family ngabineta bo nessamale no seha. Pantumali keny youfuba nga ken tuba nyoko shakuzambia. Kansh tu manashikinakumu. Ama kenya yukuroshakuapua, ne ba nashita na saimu. Babika neri sha tio family ifuma ukshikinaku Afrika. Family tenakanapu shikina kuzambia. Batu mumbangapati nyoko, uman du keme, pantu muntum kan yoksangwa kuchiliro, etemona uyamari so says ya chamu. Ngabari fumina kufiye, kukuchiriu babika kuna vice president. Nabenaba Twinjilo navenangaba tabakasangweku. Nabari sangua, to a shikanok, shikanupa pomran duamun tuumu, amali so says Iona Ikeengi. So ishumi andasheni ishu. To fitwash kongawi. I sub me to a mwam.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:31

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. We want to a kwaleza. Let's hear from you. We might have to uh end the broadcast. I want to hear from you so quickly, quickly make your call so that we hear from you. Uh we may not stay as long as we want. I know this is an important subject, but we're just reporting on what happened in South Africa quickly, and we want to hear from you. Hello, caller. Please tell us your name. Good evening.

SPEAKER_19 1:44:03

Good evening, thank you. Anonmas calling from Zambia.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:06

Anon mask, make your contribution.

SPEAKER_19 1:44:10

Yes, Ambassador. Um, first of all, uh, I would like to share something uh uh with you. Yes, you know, when I was hearing uh our mother is uh mother Esther Longo praying this this afternoon, uh watching his video. I thought it's heartened to see uh people uh making fun of it, but you can tell a mother who's uh you know deeply hurting from the from the bottom of her heart, the way she was praying, you can see that she's been in retreat trying to pray that uh everything uh goes to the family. So, what am I saying here? I'm trying to tell the Zambia's that you know praying is not about just being a Sunday Christian. Praying is about even having a relationship with God. But when you hear even the prayers that mom was praying today, you can tell that I think from all these months that have passed, she's really gotten, you know, she God has been become her best friend. And henceforth, even the judgment had to just go to her side. And this morning, um I also want to attest that uh personally I've been praying for her and I've been on a long fast. And today, when I was praying, what I say to God was, Father, I thank you. Today the prayer was about thanking God that it is done, and I'm so glad that it went like that. Now, I want to tell the Zambians something, Ambassador. I think this Zambians have not noticed it, and uh Zambians we need to inculcate a value of being paying attention to details when it comes to important issues.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:12

Hello, yes, yes, we can hear you, mama.

SPEAKER_19 1:46:15

Yes, Ambassador, when President Araine Chile Ma came into power, did you realize you remember that he visited several graves? He went to the KK11 grave in honoring the heroes, he went to Mazoka's grave, he went to Shambalek's grave, he went to Kapoepu's grave. These are just things that we were happened in the past. What about the things that we don't know? He tried to see pezani's body, he tried to see the bishop's body, and we hear they've bought shares in ideal funeral parlor. So Zambians must start praying and must take things very seriously in the things of God. And I hope each and every Zambian is has gotten to hear about this detail because it's very important that we pay attention to detail because even the the man of God, you are speaking uh you you you mentioned uh uh uh ambassador. You can tell sorry, I'm calling you apostle.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:26

Amen. You're a prayerful woman, you're a prayerful woman.

SPEAKER_19 1:47:31

Amen, amen, amen. Yeah, so you can see you can see ambassador today. I was telling my one of uh somebody that mentored me when I became born again. I said, Dad, the church has become toothless. No, it's this church mother bodies that even you, dad, you become toothless. Why are you?

SPEAKER_02 1:47:55

Uh oh, are you there? We've lost our dear sister, but I think we've gotten a point. Hello, caller. Please tell us your name and where you're calling us from and make your contribution.

unknown 1:48:08

Okay, I remain anonymous. You know nowadays the anonymous is the uh the common name in Zambia.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:13

Anonymous, make your contribution.

SPEAKER_22 1:48:16

Uh very uh very encouraging the the judgment uh uh over uh President Edgarungo. But as the prejudice caller uh has highlighted, it's better the burial does not take place this time. Only two months for in uh for Zander to gain another independence. So if the family had waited for this long, I think they can wait for two months and then we come and have a real dignified burial with real uh funeral with everything after 13th August 2026. Because that is the day Zambia will gain independence. I can tell you, just like the previous scholar said, if they decided to come back here in Zambia, it will be chaos. It will be chaos because people would want to go and receive the remains of their loved, the beloved president, the former president from the airport. This money will refuse them. There will be gangsters, they will remove all those vehicles with water, what they will just be chaos. So please let the family just remain in South Africa. They just wait a little bit longer. If it won't happen, if their independence won't come, they are better off burying in South Africa, where everyone will go there and have a good burial, and then something will come up after five years.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:49

Thank you. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_16 1:49:55

Ambassador Mumba, good evening.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:57

Good evening.

SPEAKER_16 1:50:00

For the wonderful programs which you have brought in tonight to the Zamian people. Almost one or close to ten days. No president is capacity a rigo advisor to the president. But I never stand decide if you speak of South Africa, the court ruling, the Supreme Court ruling in South Africa, never president, his excellency the president of the Republic of Zambia, Mr. Hata Indi Kidema, is to have to address the Zambian people. The only person the Zambian people that gave the mandate to preside over the affairs of this country is His Excellence President. My president, Mr. Haga Inde Sami Isma. So for me as a Zambian citizen, I'm waiting for my president to give us the guidance. This is very important. Even the international community, the ones to understand the stance of our president, the wish of the former head of state. The South African Supreme Court is now the party of what uh former president, President Lungu, let President Lung Zambia. One, there are two scenarios here. There are Zambian people, Ava you poke Lunguwa Shitam Zambia, because seven years. And Warungu is still to be buried in Zambia. Including even myself, including even yourself ambassador, I will have my former president Edgar Lungu to be buried in Zambia. The way I govern this country, the wheel of governance. This is the biggest process in the Karasika. I don't Mr. Shuamazambiani, the Kenny Urupualandi, Lekeni Mkalambawandi, the Kenny sixth Republican president, Mr. Ashiko Mune Zambia.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:43

Thank you very much. I think your point is very, very clear. Hello, Cola. Please tell us your name and where you're calling us from and give your contribution. But nameless, make your contribution.

SPEAKER_21 1:54:58

Thank you so much, Ramamba. Yeah, we also missed you quite a lot because without you we are lost. Well, Ramamba, um, it's quite sad. To me, it's like he batata waluguba fale law because he was kept in captivity. I just thank the Lord for you know listening to the cries of Baibo, Baibo, Yadi Kayaka, Mwan do way catching. Yeah, the Langam exputers no king and originally. You know, there are mixed feelings today in Zambia, and the details as just started. But this is just the beginning of everything. Bamwamba mungu for me as well. We've got our own law in Zambia. Vala isaika echumbi. Ukuchi kata ukuchika, they let it ukubashike, ula after Ama Vuchina Kita. Ukachakwati, ubute kwekawina, vate ka sukawina ka sikina kura kwini, tukaya shulula, tukaya sendama fupa, tu kalita bamuam, bakris tua papata. A pata pali nasim passi, kapayasana chiva kali techak wwe tumba kueva tea, kacha easy, noxendamana. Avanguala you actuam sango wea, utiba isakana we ka tech to me. Ye cham kusan wish and a ka minisaku na canu.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:23

Thank you anonima. Salo cora, please tell us your name and where you're calling us from and make your contribution.

SPEAKER_27 1:57:30

Mamambaya speaking to Chibekele.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:33

Chiwakeli, make your contribution.

SPEAKER_27 1:57:36

Umba, first things first, I want to congratulate you. You've been doing a very wonderful job for us, Zambians. And uh secondly, the ways that you the way you have come out with this program, uh, it was very you you you used very wise words. Abantu abakwata wisdom. I pray to be like you one day and may God continue blessing you. So, first things first, Bamwamba, there is no any normal Zambian that would want the late president to be buried in South Africa now, erongamualesha interambitious as Africans, as Zambians, now sungobi, eronikung kondu, musiri kanangwa, bala ruisha by all means basendo movidi bashani, baya shikakumiya. But look at these circumstances. There is something that is not just too well. Apape nefia pay in the past five years, this has not been normal. Things are not normal. Ukufuya sa kwa mubidu yu takuli normu yo. Because takwa ba umuntu with our right senses, uingafwaya, uku patikisha, uku shika, umubi wa muntu, usiri family wwakwe. Na ngula mwinga bomba sani no muntu for so many years umawasa na familia na ngwe na ngumwa mfuana shan. Ero muntu ya kafuwa. Tamwakese na pantuwa libomba nagwisa na rupantuwa yumu wom shu wandeo nate mwene mushike ne wungku te sambu. Takuli, ngula vatawa rungu wari tbombelefuba tbombeli. Ba ri kwate kobafuma. Family yawe ri kwa ten sambu. Na efube nefu bale bombela pile twa umfufu baalanda family. No twa bombela pamu tuwa fwishefu twinga fwidisha, no kuwa shika mchivote. Notif, this has not been normal. And the way people have been coming out uh uh attacking the family, it has not been right. Something is wrong. Watabantubale won't fish wana chimupashimu. This is not normal. So Bamwamba, just like the previous scholar had said, she said something with a lot of wisdom. This is just the beginning of something big. Let us not sleep. Ukwebatitupanga mistake, the moment that body is going to come here, they are going to do something that is going to even shock us. Let us wait. Like she said, we wait until my elections yapwe. If baka wina, they bury that side. Ero kukes of tekobu mumbi. If intolos kabako stabilized wamokwa stuam, abantuwa le munikoku basen. Titu aya sendava tatatana gumaf patuashika kunova lu. Otherwise, this has not been normal. Efoningalanda kofeni. Bamwamba mwika palwa.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:49

Thank you very much. Thank you very much, callers. And uh um let us continue to to to to speak. Hello, caller. Please tell us your name and where you're calling us from and uh give us your contribution.

SPEAKER_33 2:01:08

This is precious and made from living stone.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:11

Precious, make your contribution, my dear sister.

SPEAKER_33 2:01:15

I just want to appreciate the the court of uh South Africa for giving the judgment in the favor of the family. At least you know they've shown that uh uh in the respected ECL, even in the states. You know, what is important is to make sure that even as they give the judgment, they should not decide to bring the body in Zambia. Because once they do that, you never know what can happen. You know, this time we have so many hypocrites who pretend like they cared about Balungu even when they did not. So, right now, let's just put everything in God's hands so that as they are going to bury our ECL wherever they are going to bury him, whether it's in South Africa, but I can love to see that let's say ECL rest in South Africa, not in Zambia. In Zambia, yes, he can come after after elections, maybe whoever is going to win, if we are going to have a new government, maybe that will. But as long as we are still having this government, I cannot encourage them to say that they should bring the body of ECL in Zambia. No. Because we have seen how he was disrespected. This government, they never respected ECL, even their cards, how they called him Akatum Biakaw. So those people, they cannot even pretend like they were going to bury ECL in a manner that they were telling the nation, no, no, no. So that's what I wanted to contribute. And also we should keep praying for the family. I love the prayer that Mama Esther Lungu prayed. Indeed, for every challenge that we pass through, it's his only God who can find a way for us. It's only God who can save us, it's only God who can fight our battles. Whatever the circumstances we are passing through, the Lord is with us. Thank you very much, and God bless everyone.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:25

Thank you, Mama. Hello, Mama. Alo Kora, please tell us your name and where you are calling us from and make your contribution.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:33

Hello, Mamamba. Maman Pai.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:37

Your line was very bad at the beginning. Please make your contributions. Thank you very much. Alakora, please tell us your name and all your calling us from and make your contribution.

SPEAKER_25 2:06:06

I also want to uh add a voice to this issue. Well, we we are very excited with the news from South Africa. Uh, judgment has been meted, the family has won the case. Um, like any other like other callers have said, I think it is not wise to bring the body of the president, the full president to see. Like everyone said the government cannot be trusted. Remember, uh, when the president just died, he was kind of saying that after so um that can happen. The little family, if government took them to court, uh they can also come under this point. The number two, that judgment ambassador is just respected in Africa. Here, when the body comes here, the army will take over. Okay, the army will take over and they'll do whatever they want to do with the body. Yeah, so that's my uh contribution this one. But also, Ambassador, there is one issue that you haven't given Dr. Body. You see, these people they went and got the body from the book, they cut it, they mutilated it, they got some I can call the call them samples. They haven't told us what the their findings were. So, we also want to know uh if at all the family uh they are going to pursue that issue because they did that against the court order that was in place. So I want you to shed more light on that one, Ambassador.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:42

Thank you very much. Thank you. Hello, Cora. Please tell us your name and where you are calling us from and make your contribution.

SPEAKER_07 2:07:50

Um, thank you very much for according me the opportunity to speak. Um, Ambassador, I've always uh mentioned that every step that um you are God send, we wouldn't be speaking about uh this um particular matter and everything else that we have spoken about during this time or even uncover in our country. Um, very touching um Madam Esther Lungo's um uh prayer today. Uh, but I just wanted to thank God that uh, you know, one could see even when she was praying that she really is sitting at the center of God's palm. There's one uh caller who called and said, um, you know, people in uh this country need to really understand what uh God is all about. For me, even if I had an iota of doubt about God's power, today is the day that the Lord has made. And that is very significant to me. And God has a path and a way and a route in which the whole of uh uh Dr. Edgar Chagualungu's uh funeral is going to be held. He has shown his hand and he has shown that he is leading and he is going to have uh our former president put to rest according to how he has ordained. I just want to thank God for taking care of everyone that had been uh you know praying and continues to pray, and that uh our country and the people of this country shall learn from this. We continue to be on our knees, that we get um revelation and we also get that freedom and the fear of God in all of us because I think we have gone a step away. We should come back to God and be the country that Zambia is supposed to have been all along. Let's claim Zambia for God so that uh things you know fall in place according to what other people have said about what Zambia ought to be and also the declaration of this country to be a Christian nation. This is why we have gone through what we have gone through. I think it was to show that when you are declared a Christian nation, you will have to be a Christian nation. You will be taken away because the devil has its claws on the country, but they the devil shall not win. The devil is under our feet. God has said in his word that we have to trample upon snakes and scorpions, and we are going to have big you know have victory. In the name of Jesus, Zambia is coming back to God, to Jesus, amen.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:09

Amen, amen. Thank you very much. Hello, colour. Please tell us your name and where you're calling us from and make your contribution.

SPEAKER_05 2:11:22

Mary Banda from Kapir, make your contribution, and prayers uh maka abakashi, valicosa and lesariva periodship, and two party, and you're not to Kashika feelings require that Zambia Motorashiki. Protective but in which I'm that beside my room. My brother Amakama every time. Yes, that day I'm not in the room. So are we still are we still the tools in his ability? We are presenting, but don't let not have that negative. Let's be positive, but let's open our ears and focus. Why is this government still ruling? It's the wrong person. That's when it's but let's protect the family. There's something going to go to come. That's what I can say. Thank you so much, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:39

Hello, caller. Please tell us your name and where you're calling us from and make your contribution.

SPEAKER_04 2:13:53

I'm listening to the other caller.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:58

Please proceed. You are you are live. Switch off your device. I'm alive.

SPEAKER_04 2:14:02

Yes, Ambassador.

SPEAKER_02 2:14:04

You are alive and you are alive.

SPEAKER_04 2:14:09

Anonymous, switch off the other device to to confuse. Like the other callers have said. But I would want to really thank God that we have gone through this. This is a spiritual battle, like some of the callers have said. But my advice that I would say is the same thing that the other callers have said, which is that uh mama Esther, they should not hurry to bring the body back to Zambia. Because at this time, we are not very sure. The last five years has actually shown us the kind of leader that we have in Zambia. So we can learn and take a leave from that. So they must just wait and we'll continue to pray for them. It's a very, very difficult time. But God has allowed us to go through this, and we must just continue to support each other and live the zombies that we know to have been. We have been brought up to love each other, to be united, but the last five years have been something else. It's like the earth has been upside down for Zambia, that we should hold together. Tend to you, Ambassador. We are really thankful to God that uh we have, God has raised somebody like you amongst us, even though you are not in Zambia, but we feel your your love, we feel your strength, we feel your organizational strength and and gift. We are so thankful to you. Uh, we love you and we miss you in Praetoria. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 2:16:07

Thank you very much. Thank you for those kind words. Family, we'll be uh we'll be closing. Let me just offer my uh closing remarks, and I'll play the video by Mama Esther uh Lungo. First, let me play that video, and uh then I come and give my closing remarks.

SPEAKER_32 2:16:32

Recognizing your supremacy, Father God, over our lives, your goodness, Father God, your loving kindness. Thank you, Father God, for what you have done for this day. The day that you had destined yourself that it will happen this day by God and our Father. We are short of ways to express our gratitude. But you wait, Father God. In Isaiah 65, verse 24 says, before we then open our mouths, you will already have known what we want to say to you. And while we are yet speaking, you will already have asked. Our God at what you choose. Who you look at it to ask, who you chose to make to ask. Father to this course. We do not know ourselves. Oh, we are human beings, but you are the greatest father. Our God and our Father, may you bless them abandoned, bless their families, increase their wisdom, strength, spirit of endurance, and more knowledge, Father God. Protection from all the evils and dangers of this world. May they excel in all their endeavors, Father God. Oh, God and Father. You are wonderful, you do marvelous things. When we we look as all our hopeless, that you assured us that we should be hopeful, that we should remain faithful to you. We remain faithful to you. Thank you for all your provisions. Thank you for strengthening us up to this time. Father, you help us. Father God, that you have kept us strong. Thank you for your loving kindness. Mercy for Father, our Lord Jesus Christ. May you keep guiding us. May you keep guiding your children that have stood with us. All our destiny, help us, Father God. Increase their knowledge, oh God. Protect them from us. Father God, we are glad. We are happy. Father God is that we are money. Your way, Father God. Because that is whatever happens. It is the will of you, Father God, for us who belong to Christ Jesus. Thank you, Father God, that we are here. You are here to us in the 16th century. Rejoice for us. 17 seconds. Pray with us. May you for your children. May you be there for us. Show us what next. Show us the way. Father, what is it now that you have in store for us? Thank you, Father God, for what you are in our lives, who you are, and what you have done.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:10

Amen, amen. And uh my maestra Lungu is still asking, show us the next step. Alocola, let me take the last three calls and we I come and give my conclusion remarks. Alocola, please tell us your name and where you are calling us from and make your contributions.

SPEAKER_03 2:20:26

Yeah, this is uh anonymous. Good evening, Mr.

unknown 2:20:30

Mamba.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:30

Indeed, anonymous, how are you today? Make your contribution.

SPEAKER_03 2:20:34

No, I'm very fine. Actually, I'm very happy today, actually, uh, because of the judgment from South Africa.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:41

Thank you, my gentleman.

SPEAKER_03 2:20:42

Uh, I quite want just to say something uh concerning the same. Yeah, first and foremost, on behalf of my beloved uh president, Mr. HH, uh, as usual, Ninveransoni. Uh Ninveransoni and Niva Kambirako because weve uh president. Having said this, Mr. Mwamba, I want to join those who are saying let's not bring, I mean the family should not bring the family the body here in Zambia. Our president and this government is not trusted. It's not trustworthy. They can do anything at any time. Imagine keeping the body for one year, one solid year. I mean, one solid year plus. Even when people, the international community were talking about it and they were complaining. Zambians here have been complaining to them, it wasn't an issue. And what can stop them not to temper when the body is here, they are going to intercept. That one I can assure you. So, for now, as much as we all want to see the body, the barrio to have it here in Zambia, we can't trust our president. Moreover, moreover, I think that's why even these elections which are coming, it should be a struggle for reparations. We need to reparate ourselves. Because once this government, everyone who's connected to this issue, the government, including the governor the president himself, is not happy with what has happened today. As somebody said that woman, president, including the government. And they are going to make sure that they follow the entire family and whoever is connected to this issue, they will be followed. So we should fight hard so that because Wamunduwire, all these issues will be buried, no one will be followed. Mr. Our President, Mr. Munduwire, he has been assuring everyone no one will be followed. But if this government continues, so I think this is what I can say, Mr. Mwamba.

SPEAKER_02 2:23:33

Thank you very much, my dear brother. Thank you very much. Hello, caller. Please tell us your name and where you're calling us from and make your contribution.

SPEAKER_35 2:23:43

Hi, hi, um, Ambassador. Good evening. Good evening. Um, yeah, uh, I'll remain anonymous. Um I just want to stress one thing on this um uh judgment that has come out. I'm very happy, just like so many other Zambians, but I also, Ambassador, want to emphasize to people like you and uh people like uh Makebi Zulu to try and remind the Zambians that actually the Lungu family did not refuse to bring the body to Zambia. What they did not want was for President HH to attend uh the burial. And now, from what I'm reading, what Kabesha has written and all that is now confusing the Zambians. They are using propaganda in confusing the Zambians to make uh the Lungo family look bad. So let us focus on the point to also just let those Zambians who are still in doubt to remind them that the Lungu family did not refuse to bring the body home home back to Zambia. They would have wanted to bury in Zambia, but it's HH that they didn't want to attend. And uh HH is very stubborn, sorry to use that word, and he didn't want to stay away. We can look at Dick Cheney in America, they didn't want Trump to attend the funeral. Trump didn't attend. What's so special about us, HH and them? The man is the one who has caused all this, and I want all Zambians to be reminded and vote this man out. He has brought so much division in Zambia. I rest my guess, Ambassador.

SPEAKER_02 2:25:27

Thank you very much. Make your contribution.

SPEAKER_28 2:25:36

Good evening, Ambassador Mwba.

SPEAKER_02 2:25:39

Good evening.

SPEAKER_28 2:25:41

This is Muero calling from Avonville.

SPEAKER_02 2:25:44

Mr. Muero, make your contribution, Ambassador.

SPEAKER_28 2:25:49

We are very happy that justice has prevailed now. Ambassador, I'm a Christian and you are a Christian. But when Jesus Christ died, the Romans surrendered the body of Jesus Christ to his followers. Ambassador, the current government, Iranokevati Balungavolana, we have the evidence. I submit.

SPEAKER_02 2:26:49

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. The last caller, you know, there have been so many calls today, and we are glad this is an emotive issue. Um a caller just reminded us that uh there were wishes by the former uh secretary of state Dick Cheney and former Senator John McCain, who said they didn't want the president Donald Trump to attend their funerals because of the strained relations. This is a matter that has been at the heart of it. Whether you you resolve, whether you think any other way, this has been the matter at the heart of the debate. It is this issue. And today I spent time to separate the issues of a state function. In this case, state funeral that can be held about the president. There's a mystery that has been literally a lie that has been told that a state function can only take place if the president is there, a state funeral can only be conducted if the president is there. That is not true. That's just propaganda. And I invited us to learn what is a state, what is a government, what is a nation, what is a country, what is the role of the president in all these uh forms of our country? Um there's an emotive issue. The Supreme Court have ruled in favor of the late president.

SPEAKER_09 2:28:38

Good evening, Ambassador.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:40

Good evening.

SPEAKER_09 2:28:42

Okay, I'd wish to be uh anonymous as well.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:46

Anonymous, make your contribution as I'm about to close, but make your contributions.

SPEAKER_09 2:28:52

Thank you, Ambassador. First of all, I would like to uh wish uh or congratulate you for the work that you've been doing for this nation. This has been uh leadership, and uh I'm sure the country will be able to remember you, and God will be able to remember you for your leadership. But uh, you know, like I'd I'd I'd just like to bring maybe to the attention of the this um you know um um you know um the the the the bar the the judgment that has come, I'd like to just make a comment on this judgment. I'd like to find out, like uh has this nation got uh elders? Do we have elders in this nation that uh speak to the principal or speak to the president? Because um what has happened is an head of uh even in Africa is an African, you know, it's inhuman, it's um we've never seen such a thing, you know, like in the history of our country, you know. So do we have elders as a nation? Do they speak to the leaders? Do they speak to the principal to just um you know give him advice because uh as things stand right now? I think he's very, very undressed. You know, he's very, very naked, but the country as Zambia we stand at um the axis of shame, you know. But um, just pause and just um go ahead and make a comment on also what's happening politically. You know, um the opposition has been given a timetable to campaign, and one person has not been given a timetable to campaign. Again, they are not listening, they are not learning. The thing is when people are speaking, people must listen. Okay, the government must listen to the concerns of the people because there's wisdom in the way the people have been advising, you know. Um, people are being excorated at the moment, people are being suppressed, people are being, you know, um guard from all angles, and people are not, the government is not listening, the police is not listening, they are being used. What kind of a nation? So I think going forward, let the elders of the nation begin to learn something from this. You have people like Nevers Mumba would come in and encourage things that um don't make sense. Okay, where are the former army commanders? Where are the former chief justices? Where are the um you know the paramount chiefs in our country? Why are they not advising the president? Where is the problem? He must learn to listen. You know, so basically, those are the few remarks I would make this evening.

SPEAKER_36 2:31:59

Thank you.

SPEAKER_09 2:32:00

Congratulations, Ambassador Mwamba, for the work that you've been doing for this nation. God will surely remember you. Thank you so very much.

SPEAKER_02 2:32:07

Thank you, thank you. Make your contribution.

SPEAKER_24 2:33:23

But um abafiafrika number one of Zambian government. So um what the kuch valid of Zambia for Zambia was it? Kabiri a chili So a situation could be a Zambia and I focus. So that's a venue in a Zambia boon save. So when a Zambia upshire bakani ki remati, bagashikiroku tali. And if you have so Namku South Africa, Karebacha if you have so who let up Zambia? I think I can take on a sympathy.

SPEAKER_02 2:35:32

Thank you very much, my brother. Iran de thing, but Tariland thing. Yeah, Modi Monaco. Um yeah, someone says, Ambassador, get a get get get an assistant to host with you. I agree with you. I need to make arrangements. We can host wherever you are. I can at a certain time, for example, hand over and allow maybe whoever is hosting with me to proceed with the phone calls. It's possible it can be done with this with soft the software I use.

SPEAKER_21 2:36:14

Good evening, Ambassador. Um, you feature batalapula, challenge. So number two Africa, Africa. About one crankilla, yo pantu a post and bad manapani for pen fish. No, but she doesn't find Saruna. Pantuwa president, Abale Bokilla Katubikalisa, Katubikala. Nangu Ichila, Jacu Pangati Chinochme dignified, fire about Tom Saru yugu. Bameba na lungu nabana, uso newata chidabatila, which wenba uku mundukiwa. Mut soonga, my emotions yardy troubled. The expression poyaway won the pawonda pacu. No bookti, chickafu nepadi one year kupen belakuya kuma county batibe, na gabi di chimbuchakonka po io vana beva se nowako ioba uchi yuku, yoga uput awi lefra ifia fia pula and gamaton tonka nya indi. Ima weba wanang nam weba chilandu kwa tio bad bomba satane uhdy mole falefoku la lefko bari banga noba u could penisam pushing putin tany atin because yava no me so yesu. U could waii from a kutiba, pant a pantasoku posa posa, it's copy the faji ksi. It's fine to can fish up fish a tic sha, went to sa lumi no imuntu a papen pochi pere pen at you guard of honour, na chimbi na chimbi, atwa president, uh uhwana. Lumia lu. Pamuelati, you know and that president Hakainde wants to be near Munda Shabu Bali Shabani Fuga. Oh but fashion the name of us. No bapotu Afrika, change of a president, but it's every opposition leader, but campaign, but it's a change from the twenty fourteen queen constitution has undertailed campaign period in Baya Tampa, Kulawa, Uguputapakati, and by it's the bala to address candidates. They are trying all these things to buy time. But you said eight days can be by not starting on time, the campaign period, but still what you have. If you want to find a jja banda, it's a chin never land up and book a point this way, that way. It's just one out of a million things that things have been happening which along Zambia. If you banda land, all those things. Now it's the boy is not so much in their favor. In fact, they go post another session. They have been moving go posts for others. So it's a two bad period show to a candle because there are still a lot of something that you can catch upila. Ah, change. The one to respect my side for Queen at Yukuya in the co. Uh president out that to I can send this. This is not the Zandia to actually one more to see the Bonaba and another school days. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 2:41:23

Thank you, my wife. Hello, Cola. Please tell us your name and where you're calling us from and give us your contribution quickly. Hello, calling from Kit. Yes, ma'am. Proceed with your contributions.

SPEAKER_26 2:41:37

Yes, uh, I think I underwit him.

SPEAKER_02 2:41:40

M Kwine M K.

SPEAKER_26 2:41:43

I think I'm not disappointed. Uh especially about China. She could no more to put a bully to which you remember for Kali. We say my cousin. Why should you guys? I can't be a store. I I think let's be serious. You don't remember. But why we have my elections.

SPEAKER_02 2:43:28

Thank you very much. Yeah, sometimes it's good to get the other views as well. Hello, Cola, please tell us your name and where you're calling us from.

SPEAKER_10 2:43:42

Uh Uncle Imano.

SPEAKER_02 2:43:44

Yes, my brother.

SPEAKER_10 2:43:46

Yeah, in as much as we have seen this uh urology, the judgment, I want to direct myself to the churches, mother bodies who cut us, cut us off to have a memorial for the less president. What's the best word that you have ambassador emano to them? We are not celebrating. This judgment is not a celebration. Things have just been put in perspective the way they're supposed to be. You get me, Ambassador.

SPEAKER_02 2:44:34

Thank you, my brother. I think I hear you. I'll answer you. Let me take the last call, then we I give my remarks and we close. Tell us your name and where you're calling us from and make your contribution.

SPEAKER_21 2:44:48

Mkai analysis, all okay, Mamwamba in the foolandanim whether never nameless. So email emotion, every guatamu see. So let them be one of them along. That will have you. So we can see my politics, would it be emotionally young to each one? Yeah, quite found.

SPEAKER_02 2:47:23

Thank you very much. We want to call a sub. I think let me give my analysis. We go. Um today we are holding a special broadcast regarding the judgment from the Supreme Court of Appeal. The Supreme Court of Appeal has emphasized what has already been known as the law in South Africa that the family takes precedence. The wishes of the deceased person takes precedence. The Supreme Court judgment was also very thorough in dismissing, uh they called it fatal for the Zambian government to rely on the case for Kenneth Kaunda because that was a judicial review which has never been heard or determined. What was just there, which Kaweche lost, was just uh his request for a stay or a restraining order for the government not to bury. That so the the the court said it was fatal for the Zambian government to rely on that case because, like I'm saying, that case has never been determined. Um we discussed today what needs to be done next. And I like the prayer by the former first lady, Mama Esther Lung, where she's calling for direction and she's praying that the Lord should show her the way. And I hope that the Lord should answer that um that that fervent, that emotional prayer that she wants the Lord to give her guidance because the Lord has sustained her thus far. The Lord has now answered her prayer and she's now asking for guidance. So you pray with her, let us pray with her that the Lord shows uh the way. What has been my view, my view uh stated on this program, is that uh this matter should not have reached thus far. The pain it has caused to all of us is been traumatic to whoever is a Zambian, whether you are UPND or PFU, a member of the opposition, or you are non-partisan, this matter has uh affected all of us because it goes to the soul of who we are as a people. Who are we? We are living in times where Zambia as a country as a life, and I've spent a lot of time to discuss that Zambia as its ordinary, uh you know, secular way, but it also as a country as a spiritual life. And I've gone back to as far back as David uh Livingstone, who when dying in Chitambo dedicated this country, that it would be a Christian nation, it would be a beacon to Africa, and it will be a light to the world. Imagine such a powerful prayer. Now that's not economics, that's not uh that's not ideology, that's a fervent prayer about our country by David Livingstone, who died 200 years ago. On his knees in Chitambo, he prayed for the life of our country, that this country will be a Christian nation to celebrate Christ and that it will be a beacon in Africa and a light to the world. Those were his words. This country has a spiritual life. This country has a secular life, and it requires wisdom for any leader to recognize that there is the spiritual life of this country and there is a secular life to this country, and both must be fulfilled. And we have demonstrated that every time our people have departed from the Lord, you know, the Lord has a way of bringing us back to the path. We don't know what ways He has. For us that are politicians, we should think for a Zambia that's prosperous, we should think for a Zambia that's developed, we should think for a Zambia that to leap from a third world status that we have to a first world. We, if it will be a country beacon to Africa, personally as a politician, I want us to feed Africa. I want Zambia to be a breadbasket. If it is to be a lie to the world, I want a thriving nation, a Christian nation that sends missionaries across the world to preach. You know, maybe the Lord wants to use our country for such purposes in these end times as that. So you need leaders that recognize, and for those that ridicule issues of Satanism, if there is Christianity, if there is good, there is evil. And you need to recognize that the two shall live side by side, but who shall you follow? And um uh regarding the next stage, looking at the prayer of the former first lady, looking at how painful this process has been, I have called that we bring closure to this and we put the the late president to rest. And as removing the meets, the meat that we're saying that uh a state function as actually uh rebuking the attorney general Muloka Wesha, who says now the matter is private, now it's up to the Lungu. No, it has nothing to do with that. All the court is saying is that respect the wishes of the late president, including the minority judgment. Even if the minority judgment is misdirected, she was saying government was not wrong because the family agreed. That is what she was purporting in her judgment. If you read the minority judgment, so both the majority judgment and the minority judgment recognize the role of the family. The minority judgment was purporting, purporting that uh uh the family and the state agreed and therefore they should allow the state to carry the body. She misdirected herself, but the four judges put this in very clear context. The Lungu family have a right to mourn and bury the late president in matters and how they wish it should be. All of us from the state, politicians, political parties can only complement what the family wants. If the family wants the burial to take place in Zambia or in South Africa or anywhere else, our role is to support them. But there are principles that we have to emphasize here. Number one, the family has never wished that the late president must lie elsewhere outside the country. The family has never wished that the elected president should not be buried at Embers Park. The family has never said that uh they don't want the president to lie in Zambia. No, the disagreements have been on the role of one person, the head of state. And you can see the fractious relationship between the two for the last 10 years. It has not been okay. And those wishes are not strange. There are cases here in the United States for Dick Cheney, you know, who was Secretary of Defense, and for Senator McCain, who stood with Donald Trump, he stood with Barack Obama, that man, you know, had uh didn't have a good relation with Donald Trump, the president. And he expressed, because when he had uh this aggressive cancer to the brain, he knew when he would die. So he designed his own funeral and he had a special request. He said, I do not want my leader, my president, Donald Trump, to attend my funeral. And if you remember, that funeral was in Arizona, uh, in the state of Arizona, Phoenix, Arizona, and president kept away. There's been a recent funeral of Dick Cheney, who was former defense minister. This funeral happened early this year. Dick Cheney's special request was that Donald Trump should not attend the funeral. These wishes are not strange. And if we have to put our president to rest in South Africa, and God forbid, again this has happened. Where the president is not being respected, the deceased president is not being respected in his own land. We have seen this occur as a famous case of Kwamen Kruma, who died in Romania, and you know, he was dethroned through a coup. And they burnt his books. He was a beacon for Africa. They tried to damage his legacy and bent his books and burned his teachings in Ghana. So Africa rose and Sekuture brought his body from Romania and put him to rest, gave him all the honors. But when Ghana reverted to a state democratic state, and people rose that respected Kwamen Kuma, recognized who Kwamen Kuma was, they the family first asked that Kwamen Kuma be put to rest in Ghana. So the first burial that took place from uh uh from is it Guinea? Now the body went in the rural areas where Kwamenkuruma was laid to rest because now it was family wishes again. Another 10-15 years passed, another government came and said, our one Kwamenkuruma was such a legendary leader in Africa. We cannot allow him to lie in some rural uh outstate somewhere. Can we have permission to put a proper mausoleum and bring him to Accra Ghana? Again, there was now a third barrier of Kwamenkruma. Remember, he dies in Romania, he's put to rest in one country, he's taken into Ghana to a rural area where he came from, and finally again his remains were repatriated. There's a beautiful mausoleum. If you've been to Accra Ghana, that honors um uh uh Kwamenkruma. If the family wishes, in whatever way, if this government fails to negotiate with the family, they can put him to rest. But the wishes of the late president and of the family is that you lie in Zambia. And my call today has been why do we have to postpone issues? Why can't we discuss why have we failed to resolve this issue? Of course, I analyzed that we do not have elders that are respected. You have people like Nevis Mumba, former vice president, that should be a leading light in our country, and they are treated with disdain. You have Enoch Cavindele, someone I respect, distinguished businessman, but he hasn't done very well in politics. And those, if you appoint Neva Smoomba or Enoch Kavindele as mediators, it would not help. Even the men of God you appoint, you have to get those that are clearly neutral that will help resolve this issue. I think it's time for the pain. You know, for us, look at the pain won't won't go away, but for the nation to begin healing. I've heard your calls, all of you. You said let him rest elsewhere. You have pleaded with the family that they shouldn't bring the body until after elections. What do we do? We again continue to let the president okay, never win our opposition. Then that will be the only reason the president can come. For me, I would like even to have a bipartisan approach where both us, the opposition, and the ruling party agree. I know the mistrust that is there by all of you. And in your cause, we're very clear that President Kindle may, even if there'll be no honor if the body came today. Maybe you will unleash party cards, maybe you'll take over the body, maybe you will kill soldiers. There are a lot of fears. What this tells me is a trust issue. That trust has broken so badly, but has it broken so irretrievably? I'll leave that to you. Today I was holding a special broadcast. We will resume our normal broadcast, but even in this heated moment, let us look to our country Zambia first. Before you are UPND, before you are PF, before you are NRPU, before you are RPU, before you are opposition. Let us remember that we are Zambians first. And we thank God for today the good news. And we stand with the with Mama Esther Lungo in our prayer. She's a she know she's a very, very strong woman. We continue to pray to God that God continues to give her strength and uh God answers our prayers. God has been answering our prayers even today, was an answer to her prayers. And it takes up the leadership of the both the ruling party and the opposition, even in our discourse. Like I was saying, I was already rebuking the attorney general. The attorney general has set a very bad tone of where we are going as a country. That's not a way is written. This is not a legal contest. There are lives involved. That statement should have been wiser. But they want to perpetuate that this is a political matter, and that is why then you will not come to a resolution if you write a write-up like that. That that's that uh you you you even say we you know we we don't agree with this judgment, but we accept it. Even just the founding of that statement spoiled everything that he wished to say because he's regarding it as a legal contest that he should have won at all cost. If he's acting in the name of the president and is acting in the name of us Zambians, he should you know recognize and write better statements than the statement because such a statement just continues to divide us, continues to drive the wedge between the family and the you know, whoever is interested in resolving this issue. God bless you, and uh thank you for listening to this debate. We'll be back when I return. Thank you very much.